When Ash says 'Kane's son...'

Its actually quite a clever bit of dialogue in the film because at that stage we dont know what Ash knows, ie that the xeno takes on the genetic traits of its host. Ash speaks in a thoughtful yet sinister kind of way throughout the film and this is a good example of the way he is slowly set up as the villain. It is a cruel thing to say but also truthful. The more that I watch the film, its actually Ash's facial expressions that I find fun to watch. Some of the little glances that he makes (particularly towards Dallas) are so well done and are a total give away once you have seen the film and know he is the bad guy. The glances are almost childlike and remind me of when my young son has done something naughty and thinks I havent seen him do it. Ian Holm is a master actor, without doubt.

Spot on Snugs ...

@snugs YES! 1. Ash's reply when Dallas asks "How we gonna get that off him?" 2. Same when Dallas asks "You're gonna do what?" 3. A cut bit I mentioned in another post when Dallas pleads to Ash right before Kane gives birth. 4. Of course, the "micro-changes in air density" reply to Ripley. Holms's expressions are one of the delights of repeated viewings. @the coming craigamore and I got into it over Ash on another thread. I like the idea of Ash going rogue in a sense and deciding on his own, company directive or not, that the Alien is so superior to the Humans that he actually enjoys aiding the xeno. Which in a sense is illogical (android feeling joy) but in another perfectly logical--his expressions clearly show frustration, anxiety (No, no, don't touch it!) and guile. And if David in Prometheus is going in the direction that many think, then Ash's more callous remarks, made from a sense of contempt and not logic, fit.

Ian Holm is absolutely wonderful to watch in just about any role he plays. As for the "Kane's son..." remark, I actually wrote a research piece on Alien and its symbolism. I found it borrows heavily from Joseph Conrad and a particular founding father of psychology (Freud). I found the Nostromo represented the human mind and with each death the mind veered closer and closer to madness. The Alien creatures, from eggs to the big bad xenomorph, rape their victims to procreate. All this ties into a very complex examination of trauma and madness. But at the core of the imagery is the evil within us. Kane was not presented as the best character: there were hints that he was greedy and put that greed above others' safety. So the xenomorph is "Kane's (also a biblical reference about murder) son." It bursts through his chest, the center of his body, his heart and soul, and is a reflection of the evil inside humanity. There is also corruption and evil hidden in the ship (the mind) as well. Ash protects the evil. Mother refuses to save Ripley (and presumably the others) due to protocol. The Company (the overall evil) permeates the ship. Another way to look at it is this: The xenomorph isn't bad. It is doing exactly what it is supposed to do. Humanity, on the other hand, has within itself a tremendous capacity for evil. EDIT: Kane was the evil member of the crew. So, if these were themes of Mr. Scott's Alien, I wonder if any of them will be reflected in Prometheus, or if any at all.

lol@dallas you always manage to work Dallas into the thread somehow you also forgot "don't touch it! don't touch it!!" when Parker should have killed it then "I think it's safe to assume it's not a zombie"...looooool

@wey that was quite deep but you are right..you don't see them fcking each other for a god damn percentage

@the coming lol not every post, just about 94% @wey-out-there There is a surprising amount of critical examination of Alien's themes and imagery. The Freudian analysis comes up a lot. The warning that Ziggy gave of the id being too controlled by the ego is represented by Mother, a pale, computer that still houses her children but feels nothing as they are torn from her womb leading to the death of her as well, until we are left with the super ego, the company. In some sense, the alien is the inevitable id. In this sense, none is evil, but damaged. The opening to the novel is interesting to match up with this. All seven are called dreamers but not professional dreamers as they have lost that imaginative spark that separates the true, "professional" dreamer, ie fully integrated soul in the Freudian sense, from the incomplete, too controlled folks that are "in search of a nightmare." There! Not once did I mention a certain captain!

@dallas!dallas! Thank you, thank you. I am glad you put that up there. Now, lets hope in a little over 2 months we can have a similar analysis of Prometheus. Which one will be the embodiment of evil? Or, unlike Kane, will we see the embodiment of a transcended human, someone who moves beyond the rest of us? But with this man become the original concept of a superman? (Oh, and let us not forget John Hurt's fantastic portrayal of Kane. His death scene has never been matched in any subsequent Alien film, and only a few perhaps have matched in in movie history).

@wey-out-there This is just a very early reaction to what might be Prometheus, but I just can't help myself! If Alien presented a kind of Freudian take on the human soul, then Prometheus may very well be a Jungian one. For Freud, I think, myths were interesting but didn't point to any collective archetype kind of thing like Jung constructed. The very fact the film is named after one of the great myths and will be about "Gods and engineers" has me wondering if Scott will be using a lot of Jungian symbolism. Combining Freud with Giger works quite well, but combining him with Jung will be interesting and a challenge. I may be totally off on this; we'll see.

Ian Holm is a master...every movement, twitch,sneer, smile and expression is calculated. There is nothing left to chance by an actor such as he. Truly a great. Ridley had lightning in a bottle with that first cast...

Seemed like a simple way of explaining the creature to the audience. Actually, that reference makes me think about Ridley's state of mind, and the doubts he had in trying to find a passable creature. Fortunately, because of H.R. Giger's uberness, such explanations weren't really needed and I'm surprised anyone heard Ash's line correctly. I used to think he was saying "can't stop it", or "can't be stopped".

I'll admit, I've seen the movie at least 40 times, but I don't know that line well. At which point in the DVD is it on the "timeline"?

I second that! I don't recall Ash EVER saying "Kane's son" in either the original version nor the Director's cut. Are you guys perhaps referring to original-script dialog or the novel itself???

Graphix67...that line is in both versions..... Ash's utterance of 'Kane's Son' always seemed to me as much a clinical observation of the alien's growth and humanoid form as it was a grim introspection of everything he knows and is keeping from them, expressing it outwardly in the form of those words. I don't believe Ash is making fun of the situation...He isn't or doesn't capable of relating to or understanding that kind of emotional connotation..hence, the awkard and repelled reaction he exhibits, shrinking away, immediatedly following Ripley's attack on him in the shadow of MOTHER and Special Order 937 in all its cold, corporate indifference.

@ craigamore Once more unto the breach! I have to differ with you on this once more. Not so much that Ash feels, but is trying to feel. All the expressions pointed out earlier show him mimicking human feelings, usually nasty ones. He is kind of a Data gone bad. The big scene is of course his attempted murder of Ripley. I read an interview (and I will have to try to find it as it has been awhile) where either the writers or Scott -- don't remember which but definitely one--said Ash wanted to know what it was like to f*** a woman. But being an android, he has no penis and needs the rolled up mag as a substitute to stick into Ripley's mouth. He has sexual desire, and rage at Ripley rolled into one, something that is not in his programming. Freud would be proud.

Ridley says himself in the DVD commentary for the 20th annivery edition that Ash's reaction to Ripley violent outburst in the computer room as he slinks backward is one that lacks that understanding of complex human emotion...he's confused by it....it would follow that, especially concerning his clinical appraisal of the alien as a perfect organism, he doesn't approach the alien emotionally as he considers it...That line, "Kane's Son," is clinical, to the point and said without emotion of any kind....As to his attack on Ripley, that reading is very plausible, but an attempt to relate to human experience, despite its violence, is not evidence of understanding or comprehension of human emotion.

It was only a few years ago after watching Alien with the subtitles on, I realised I the line was "son" before that I thought it was "size." From that simple mistake I thought the alien adopted characteristics from its host, for example... from a human it would be biped, from a snake it would be serpent like, from a dog it would.... well you get the idea. Strange how I leapt to this conclusion from a misunderstanding and stranger still is the fact that [i]is[/i] what happens. (this was long before Alien 3 or collected any magazines.) If we're talking about Ian Holm's acting I reckon I should share one of the moments that still makes me laugh, its the scene in-which Ash as a hold of Ripley by the hair and (I guess its) Ridley working the camera backs into one of the dangly toys and Ian almost jumps and you can read his face it's a puzzled look of "surely that's a cut???.... No carry on?" then throws Ripley across the room haha brilliant!

@ craigamore But in relation to the actual attack on Ripley, on the Quadrilogy set Scott states he thinks of Ash as having sexual urges and in fact says Ash always wanted to rape Ripley or at least rape [i]someone[/i]. That was the direction he gave Ian Holm. On top of it, to really drive the point home, the mag is some kind of porno. Ash could be totally confused in the computer room but then comes to a decision based on his desire to rape Ripley. And acts on it. Which in no way says Ash understands human emotions, but does clearly imply that he at times has them, at least one, and at other times [i]wants[/i] to understand/copy them, as using the mag as a substitute penis shows.

If Ash was thinking clinically he would have simply broken her neck long before Parker and Lambert come to the rescue. There was even enough time to get rid of/hide the body and state Ripley called him too and that he has no idea where she is. He is just not detached in that sequence. Something else is going on.

Still doesnt answer the question as to how Ash knew how superior the Alien was does it? Or how the company new of the existence of an "Organism" Or even how Ash knew it could be matched by its own hostility? Perhaps these will be answered in Prometheus

@dallas very interesting about Ash's rape intentions...I can imagine the frustration of wanting to have sex but not having a penis lol....I always wondered why he chose such an inefficient method of killing such as a magazine While we are on the sexual aspects, did Ridley also choose white blood to symbolize semen? Just before he attacks Ripley we see white sweat dripping down his forehead, this could also be relevant

@craigamore... Please help out a fellow ALIEN fan down on his luck. What scene on the DVD does the "Kane's son" quote take place??? I promise to hunt down the scene immediately!

@Graphix67, it's the part after Brett is killed and they're all talking about how to stop the alien. Right after Parker says "this son of a bitch is huge, it's like a man, it's big".

Thanks Gehirn....Graphix67....Gehirn has it right. dallas!dallas!...."If Ash was thinking clinically he would have simply broken her neck long before Parker and Lambert come to the rescue. There was even enough time to get rid of/hide the body and state Ripley called him too and that he has no idea where she is. He is just not detached in that sequence. Something else is going on." The clinical portion of my argument is mostly directed at his use of that term, "Kane's son."

sonofa... here's the part in the script: Dallas: Now, this air shaft may work to our advantage. Here. It leads up to and comes out in the main airlock. All right, there's only one big opening along the way, we can cover that up, and then we... drive it into the airlock and zap it into outer space. Parker: How? This son of a bitch is huge! I mean, it's like a man; it's... it's big! Ash: [softly] Kane's son.

Thanks everyone for the details! I actually found a FAQ page that alluded to this same discussion and they have a different take: Q: When the remaining crew discusses Brett's death, what does Ash say? A: It is uncertain, but it could sound like two different things: 1. "Kane's son..." 2. "Gained some..." He refers to the alien creature, which they saw leaving chestburster-size, and kill Kane as a eight-foot creature. Both explanaitions are possible. In a spanish subtitling version of Alien, the subtitling translates it as option 1. In a Dutch version, it translates as option 2. The alien script also states that Ash should say option 2. http://stason.org/TULARC/movies/alien/11-ALIEN-Frequently-asked-questions-Movies-Alien.html

@graphix67...I'm sorry but there is no debate, he says Kane's son...lol@gained some The subtitles for the bluray confirm this..Kane's son...not Nate's Bum, not Dave's chum, KANES SON!!!

@ craigamore I'm with you there on "Kane's son" @ Mark Cawley I think the sections of the novel Craigamore pointed out are relevant. I think the scene as written in the script leaves it even more mysterious in a good way; the change to company seeming to know all in the film weakens that point a little, one of the few points where I prefer the written dialogue to Holms' changes. You can check out the scene online--the Company doesn't really know much and Ash's admiration for the xeno develops after its birth. @ the coming That Ash, so sure it is a son! I guess every dad wants a boy.

@craigamore & the coming... To quote the Monkees: "I'm a believer!" I took out my handy-dandy ALIEN QUAD. dvd and checked both the regular and Director's-Cut version. I'm convinced it is "Kane's son". Amazing that I never noticed it before.

I'll pitch in on this one since I've seen Alien about six and a half thousand times now :-P It's definitely "Kane's son."