Ambiguity Debate - Q4 - Drones & Warriors

@ Red Wolf... Firstly, [i]"a common mistake small children make when learning to read"[/i] ..is yet another needless insult, this is a debate, personal insults, no matter the intention behind them are not necessary nor constructive in a debate. Again, it seems I must direct you to the [url=http://www.prometheus-movie.com/community/forums/topic/2594]Forum Rules[/url], which also includes a code of conduct which i suggest you read thoroughly, before continuing to post in these forums. Secondly, your arguments, as ambiguous in nature as they are seem to engineered to derail threads, an action I have seen in your posts both in this and other threads created by other members. Thirdly, you have called holes in many peoples logic, when it seems as though your own logic is limited at best... [i]Stated another way: he was facehugged on LV-223 and sent on his way when the FHer completed its mission.[/i] ...1) There is absolutely no evidence that the Juggernaut seen in Alien had ever been to LV-223, 2) There were no facehuggers on LV-223, and 3) LV426 is 2 light years away from LV-223, not 3 planets east. Finally, what we are trying to do here, as I have already stated, is to ascertain to best possible answer for each question, not the easiest. After thoroughly reading the forum rules and rules of conduct may to can help the rest of us reach that goal, instead of derailing the thread.

Wow! I respond to your OBVIOUS shot at me/my thesis (i.e., "...ergo simple logic that a small child can understand...") and I'M castigated!?!? I must have missed the part in the rules where Staff are exempted from them. Regarding your points, however: 1. The Jugg left from SOMEWHERE with eggs in its cargo hold. There is just as much "evidence" that a FHer got loose, ascended to the bridge via spitting acid that formed a nearly symetrical, square hole with dimensions the Trilobite could easily fit through, facehugged the SJ, fell off his face (though there's no sign of it on the bridge) and that the SJ then threw the switch to an ostensibly pre-recorded beacon warning and that an auto-pilot feature of the Jugg kicked-in which landed them all on LV-426. Agreed? 2. There was more than one temple/dome on LV-223. Since the Engineers appear to have used eggs rather than urns back in the SJ's day, there is no evidence to debunk my theory that those domes once held eggs. Agreed? 3. While 426 and 223 may be separated by 2 LYs, I'm not in possession of any map that indicates there are more than 2 planets between each. Are you? Lastly, allow me to assert one more theory: Though my points -- and certainly my humor -- may be "biting" at times, I hardly believe they are of a "felonious" nature requiring chides, rebukes or discipline. I submit that I have touched a nerve by debunking your theory (as others have in this thread). Of course, I have no "proof" of this; it's -- wait for it ---------------------------- what I choose to believe.

Red Wolf, Again with the "touching a nerve issue", a point you raised in another thread. This is not a competition of egos. This is a debate to find the fullest and best answer to each question posed. You have not debunked my theory, if anything you have strengthened it, as evidenced by the posts of the members that are actively contributing to this thread. My last post was verbal warning in my position as staff, and featured no personal insults, but your insults have been, more than once, aimed at me and other members in this and other threads. Rather than be a constructive part of this thread, you seem to pick apart at mine, and other members theories and ascertations with needless and pointless arguments that only serve to derail this and other threads from the topic at hand. Because of your need to publicly denounce the posts of members, and because of your need to needlessly insult said members. I will state this clearly and pubicly, change your attitude and behavior in this and other threads, become a constructive addition to debates or else further action will be taken. You are on the line with myself and other members of staff, it is up to you to either heed the warning or cross that line - your choice. Now, can we please get back to the topic in hand and reach the best answer possible to Q3 in the OP, thanks.

Now that we're back on track, I'll post Snorky's series with my alterations again because I really do think it best describes the most honest series of events: Juggernaut in flight over/near LV-426 - Pilot forced, for whatever reason (mechanical or otherwise), to drop out of FTL, leaves chair - Egg in Cargo bay, having been "disturbed", hatches, then sensing pilot above - Pilot is facehugged sometime after ship drops from FTL and either before or after it is forced to land on LV-426 - burnt hole in platform (most direct route) takes place either before facehugging, after chestbusrter or both - Pilot awakens and transmits signal/beacon - Chestburster born. Now......to address some of the issues we keep going back and forth on, I will say the following..... 1) As to when he was facehugged, Ridley made it very clear in the text from his dvd commentary; an egg was disturbed at some point during the journey...i.e....after departure.....we know that much for sure as the incubation period is so very short...the exact when IS in question to a point, but, based on the little we can surmise, it DID happen; thus we should state it in vague terms as to accurately state what we cannot pinpoint for sure and state is as follows..."Pilot is facehugged sometime after ship drops from FTL and either before or after it is forced to land on LV-426." ....Here's the qoute again from Ridley's commentary on Alien's 20th Anniversary DVD to make the point that we DO know an egg was disturbed: "But clearly from here, this is where the transmission would emanate from [the pilot's chamber], probably in an automatic transmission, so this creature had obviously experienced maybe one of the eggs had been disturbed and a creature had got out, had attacked the rest of the crew, don't ask me where they got to, but he's pretty gruesome..." 2) Based on evrything we've seen throughout the films, that hole is clearly burnt through to the eggchamber. Now, again, the exact when, and from which stage of the alien's lifecycle, is not determinable. It just isn't. As I've laid out the series, we have a clear set of possibilities, among which, one of them is true. It is impossible based on our limited information to know, for certain, which it is, thus we should state it as such..."burnt hole in platform (most direct route) takes place either before facehugging, after chestburster or both." We can logically state that one or more stages of the alien, facehugger and or drone, burned that hole. That point is certifiable; exactly which and when is not, thus it should be written as vaguely as I wrote it. 3) As to where the facehugging happened and whether or not a facehugger was in the pilot's chamber, we cannot say for sure and thus, should not attempt to. All that matters is that we know it did happen somewhere on board the ship. Now, the hole in the pilot's chest along with the knowledge of the egg chamber, the burnt hole between the chambers and Ridley's "disturbed" comment is all evidence enough to state the simple FACT that a facehugging occured as follows..."Pilot is facehugged sometime after ship drops from FTL and either before or after it is forced to land on LV-426." I really think we've laid it out as best we can, given what we know and I will repeat the series again that I think best and most honestly answers the question: Juggernaut in flight over/near LV-426 - Pilot forced, for whatever reason (mechanical or otherwise), to drop out of FTL, leaves chair - Egg in Cargo bay, having been "disturbed", hatches, then sensing pilot above - Pilot is facehugged sometime after ship drops from FTL and either before or after it is forced to land on LV-426 - burnt hole in platform (most direct route) takes place either before facehugging, after chestburster or both - Pilot awakens and transmits signal/beacon - Chestburster born. Now...dow we accept this or not?

@ Craigamore... Amended for simplicity... [b]Juggernaut in flight over/near LV-426 - Pilot drops out of FTL, leaves chair - Disturbed Egg in Cargo bay hatches, sensing pilot above - Pilot is facehugged -Juggernaut forced to land on LV-426 - Pilot awakens and transmits signal/beacon - Chestburster born.[/b] Either, and, or is speculation. because there is no there other known ascertainable for the Juggernaut before forced to land on LV-426, and given the nature and chain of events we can deduce that the act of being facehugged, and the pilots resulting unconsciousness is the only deductible reason. Although the chain of events is the best neutral answer I think we can collectively come to, I will add that personally I see the chain of events as more fully played as thus (which explains the lack of an Alien and Facehugger corpse)... [i]Juggernaut in flight over/near LV-426 - Pilot drops out of FTL, leaves chair - Disturbed Egg in Cargo bay hatches, sensing pilot above - [b]Facehugger burns through platform and seeks refuge atop the "cannon" apparatus - Pilot re-enters seat and is facehugged before helmet seals[/b] - Juggernaut forced to land on LV-426 - Pilot awakens and transmits signal/beacon - Chestburster born - [b]Alien searches fin arm of derelict (never explored) - Alien placed in stasis by Juggernauts systems.[/b][/i]

Snorkelbottom I like it !! Why does the pilot need to get out of his chair ?? Ridley says he doesn't know what happened to the other crew members-so I suspect they might have had to do maintenance on the ship periodically - inspections if you will and got hugged - all of them. Their hyper sleep chambers were on the lower deck. Knowing they had little time they woke the pilot to in form him of the situation. The pilot realised keeping them on ice until the chestbursters can be removed is the best course of action. He returns to the pilot chair and gets hugged. Realising he cannot wake any crew member to replace him he decides to land on the closest planet he can find. Lv 426. In the moments before chestburting he is bareley able to land the jugg. The automatic warning is triggered and the rest of the crew is chestbursted as the power supply to their hypesleep chambers fail. All xenos die eventually.

@ oduodu Because there was no damage to the helmet, thus he was outside of the suit when he was facehugged. We saw no hypersleep pods, and the lower deck was the egg chamber - thus we assume he was lone pilot.

HOW DO YOU KNOW THE SJ WAS FLYING AT FTL????? for all that we know - wich is NOTHING ABOUT THAT - the Sj could simply be floating around at 2mph... edit: ah, you corrected the answer.

Snorkelbottom Greetings !!! Live long and prosper !!!! Take me t........sorry !!! LOL !! If he was outside his suit he could have gotten hugged just as the suit closed around him. What did ridley mean by other crew members- what did happen to the other crew members ? They were attacked according to ridley. Was that maybe what caused the pilot to get out of his chair? If they were attacked after he disturbed the eggs and went back to his chair they would have informed him after regaining consciousness after being facehugged knewing impending death.

@ oduodu - no evidence in film of other crew members, only one.

Snorkelbottom Are we working only with what we see on film or are we working with what ridley says or are we working with both ?

The film, unless Ridleys comments support what is in the films IMO. Because regardless of anybodies statements relating to other crew members, we only see evidence of one.

Please simplify If the film says the apple Is green And ridley says the apple is red What do we accept as the truth ?

oduodu... A pointless exercise, but to play devils advocate the answer would be green.

Snorkelbottom So on what evidence seen in alien do we accept the pilot was hugged during flight ?

@ oduodu... run through the following chain of events looking at the evidence seen in the movie, combined with the facts we know about the species... [b]Juggernaut in flight over/near LV-426 - Pilot drops out of FTL, leaves chair - Disturbed Egg in Cargo bay hatches, sensing pilot above - Pilot is facehugged -Juggernaut forced to land on LV-426 - Pilot awakens and transmits signal/beacon - Chestburster born.[/b]

Snorkelbottom Please specify the evidence as seen in alien.

Oduodu... The evidence as seen in Alien and its sequels, and AVP if you care too but expect to scorned if you do so.

snorkelbottom Please specify any evidence (on film of course) from any of the alien - avp - prometheus Films that the sj was hugged during flight. Just one example - please.

@ oduodu... The evidence is laid out in mine and others previous posts in this thread.

Why don't [b]YOU[/b] provide us with some evidence Red Wolf . You watch the movies, do some reading and research instead of trying to provote others. Let's see what you come up with. I already know the answer to your 'cocky' remarks. I'll be waiting to see what you come up with.

Snorkelbottom Yes sir !! Good to hear from you !! Point me to one piece of evidence (based on what we see in the alien universe films) in any of your posts that proves beyond any reasonable doubt that the sj was hugged during flight.

oduodu and Snorky....what it comes down to, based on both film evidence and Ridley's comments (I believe both are valid) is that at some point during the journey, an egg was disturbed. We know that much, therefor, it follows that an event caused the disturbing to take place. This event, given consideration, can only be guessed at, but there are two valid, acceptable causes that we know occurred in the chain of events and thus, one or the other is the likely cause of the egg being disturbed. Now, I just went through all that because the answer as to when the facehugging occurred is incumbent on one of those two confirmed events and they are as follows: 1) The ship is forced out of FTL for unkown reasons. 2) The ship is forced to land for an unknown reason. These are the only confirmed events that we as observers can connect with the affirmed "disturbing" of the egg; therefor, we posit a connection. One of these two events led to the facehugger birth and from there we know two possible answers as to when the facehugging occurred; either before or after the landing. It is IMPOSSIBLE to know exactly when. I personally prefer after the landing because it allows for either event to be the cause of the egg's disturbance. The drop from FTL could have caused the egg to to open and the facehugger could have only gotten to the pilot after the landing. Ulitmately, what we all must admit here is that there are only a handful of certainties here and I think we have to state our final opinion so as to reflect both what we do know and what we don't know. We don't know that the facehugging occurred in flight or after the landing, we just don't know. We do know that it occurred after an egg was disturbed, which has two likely causes, and before the signal was sent...period. We do not know what stage of the lifecycle caused the burns in the floor or when. We do that at least one stage in the lifecycle did cause those burns....period. We do not know what cuased the ship to drop from FTL or what forced it to land on LV-426. We do know that these events led to the pilot's death as one of them distrubed an egg. We do know they occured as we know the ship was forced to land, because it was there, and we know that it was forced out of FTL, becuase it had to in order to land. We know they occurred as it is certain there was an event that disturbed an egg, which led to the clear evidence in our dead pilot. The logic there is a bit circular, but the idea stands; each point necessitates the others and vice versa. An egg was disturbed by an event - said event was either what forced the ship to drop from FTL, What forced it to land or was either the drop or landing themselves - which necessitates the existance of cause for the ship to have dropped from FTL and to land in the first place......see how that works? I've amended the series again: Juggernaut in flight over/near LV-426 is forced for unkown reason to drop out of FTL and land on LV-426 - At some point in the interim, an egg is disturbed in the Cargo bay, hatching and sensing the pilot above who is then facehugged - Pilot awakens and transmits signal/beacon - Chestburster born. With the exception of mentioning the burn, which I don't believe is necessary here, that series accomplishes our task without claiming speculations. It is all fact now. We can argue til the cows come home about the other details which seems likely or probable or whatever. That series accurately states what we know as well as what we don't. As for the exact time the facehugging occurred, none of us will ever know unless Ridley tells us point blank or some lost notesof O'Bannon's are discovered; point being that we know the time frame - At some point in the interim, an egg is disturbed in the Cargo bay, hatching and sensing the pilot above who is then facehugged - which is after the drop from FTL and before the beacon was set...period. I think we can and should move on now. I think we've exhausted this one.

@ craigamore... Although I agree with the point that we should move on to the next question the amendments you have made to the chain of events are ambiguous and thus non-factual thus I will post the following answer (which is the only known course of events) in the OP before posing the next question... [b]Juggernaut in flight over/near LV-426 - Pilot drops out of FTL - Egg hatches, sensing pilot above - Pilot is facehugged -Juggernaut forced to land on LV-426 - Pilot awakens and transmits signal/beacon - Chestburster born.[/b]

From Jamescamerononline: [quote][b]The Alien in the first movie wasn't a full adult yet - the individual in ALIEN never reached maturity. In time his head would get ridges and would transform into a fully adult creature that we see in 'Aliens'. The young alien of the first movie looked pretty much the same as the adult underneath the dome. Aliens are "born" with a smooth head, and this cover falls off after a while, exposing the ridges. Supporting this thesis, the chestburster in "Aliens" had a smooth head.[/b][/quote] James Cameron: [quote][b]The Alien in the first film had only been alive for 24 hours. It was still an infant, even thought it’d grown full size. (...) The Alien head in the first film was very smooth. The top of the head was very smooth. Underneath it had a skull shape and a ribbed design and originally it was designed to see that through that kind of transparent surface in the Giger design. I thought that what was underneath the surface was more interesting than the final look[/b][/quote]

Snorkelbottom I agree with craigamore's take on it. Engineers cannot walk around in a jugg without a biosuit while it is in space as there is no breathable atmosphere hence no facehugging possible. I agree that facehugging could not have occurred preflight. I am still in the dark as to what is considered evidence in this thread. On a more personal note I would like to apologise if I have offended anyone in any way and ask anyone who feels I have not kept to forum rules to please indicate such. I would like to indicate that I do not in any way consider myself an expert in any matter regarding the alien universe. I am a novice at best. That is why this thread is so important to me because this thread will also provide for other people who know like me knows very little about the alien universe. That is why the concept of evidence and the burden of proof is so important to me as this will allow us to make a distinction beween facts and statements based on deductive logic which hasnt been proven beyond any doubt as it relates to what we see in the filmsm Finally I submit Two questions : As at this moment there is a part of the OP that reads: "Once we have, or do not have, an universally accepted answer for the last question (which will be posted underneath the question), we will move onto a new question, and so on..." Was the answer you posted for Q3 the universally accepted answer in this thread ? What will you post when there is no universally accepted answer ? As to Q4. I plead novice !!! Thanks for a great thread. Hows that AVP script coming !!! Best wishes Oduodu

On the subject of the shaft leading to the egg silo: http://alienexplorations.blogspot.com/2008/01/dissecting-derelict-peering-into-silo.html "We wonder how the silo is part of the derelict, with an open shaft right next to the jockey's seat. In the design of the actual platform, there is a shaft entrance on both sides, but it was not to be seen this way in the film. There are no solid answers, we can only just about peer into the silo entrance and glimpse something to understand about the way the entrance is formed, in contrast to what we might have seen in an earlier script describing it as an acid eaten hole, but the shaft entrance has four corners and then some planks at the side seem to be warped a little, and one wonders if this is just part of the ships design. However the reasons for various things change beyond explanation because of the budget cuts." So... there are possibly two such openings- and if this design was intentional, then acid burns didn't create the hole, only deface it. Another visual element supporting the design theory is that above each row in the egg chamber, there is an opening to a shaft leading upward- the same shaft that Kane was lowered into. This brings me to this possible scenario: * The Derelict takes off, with a single pilot, on a bombing mission to some enemy world. The Pilot is fused with the chair, since it is essentially a part of the ship itself: "The creature we finally ended up building is biomechanical to the extent that he has physically grown into, or maybe even out of, his seat, - he's integrated totally into the function he performs."- Giger * In one of the egg rows, the blue laser mechanism fails, releasing one or more face huggers. * One or more face huggers make it up the shaft leading to the telescope room, the Pilot uses a weapon to kill it; the resulting acid spray defaces and warps the silo entrance. * Another face hugger overcomes the Pilot and he gets hugged. * Coming to, he realizes his ultimate fate and sets up the warning beacon. * The chest burster emerges; notice the Pilot's face, it's mouth agape as if it was screaming. One possible flaw: the hugging process gives the host amnesia- so how did he know he was doomed and thus decide to initiate the warning beacon?

Oh yeah another possible flaw- if the Pilot used a weapon to kill/injure an attacking FH, then where is the weapon? It should be laying near his body...

@XA07... Although what Cameron says for the idea of the ridged head drones in Aliens makes sense when looking only at Aliens, it doe's go against what is almost universally believed for Alien - that the creatures allegedly have a short life expentancy, withe the Warrior in Alien supposedly, and according to Ridley Scott, climbing into the crevice in the Narcissus to die.

@Snork Yep. And you'd be correct. However, it's the only answer we have regarding the Dome & Ridge question. The real reason, or one of few reasons, for the removal of the dome for Cameron's creatures was that Cameron was concerned that the domes would get damaged due to the creatures movements in Aliens as they were more active and so on. So, not only did he not want to spend time replaceing domes but he found the head a lot more interesting without the domes with the ridges exposed. Domes were made for one or two of the creature suits. But Cameron asked for them to be removed. Cameron wanted the suit simplified and concentrated on the creatures movements. More stunt work was required so naturally the dome would have gotten damaged during stunt shots.