Comments (Page 374)

I think Characters as Thoughts_Dreams mentions a lot, is certainly key...   Well handled Characters we can connect with are key to any fear/horror.

If Characters mean nothing to us, then even revealing the Xenomorph a few times  like in ALIEN would just amount to a few Jump Scares....   For us to have real tension we need to believe in the Plight of the Characters.

I think Context is key, and pushing boundaries... pulling something a bit more risky/shocking.. 

RS said Alien Covenant will Scare the $"%£$^ out of us.... Sadly for how Gruesome Ledwoods Death was.... the impact was shock value only...   because well Ledwood was basically just another Star Trek No Named Away Team Member.

If this scene happened after, to a Character we could connect a bit more with then the Impact would be much greater.

Can you imagine if the Back Burster Scene happened in Alien 3 to NEWT? 

Whats more, is i was expecting Alien Covenant, due to it having couples, and seeing those Baby Looking Aliens in Davids Workshop prior to any Trailers landing...  i was pondering a idea and a wish....   That what if Black Goo infected a Pregnant Female, who then had a Love Scene of Sorts... and we got a BELLY-BURSTER...   How Crazy would that be?

Not to worry thats what i have in store for my ideas for a AC sequel... ;)

The biggest task is putting David in a situation where you can feel for his loss/situation but doing that means making us think of him more than a ROBOT...

This again is a point Thoughts_Dreams brings up a bit, and its valid...  its really hard to get us to Feel any Fear or Sorrow for a Robot in a movie.... i mean we was not really shocked (well i was not) or effected by Bishop being Torn into TWO by the Queen. 

If Bishop was portrayed as the Bad Guy, then we would feel even less Horror at such a Scene...

I think Families hit home with many people..... putting them in a situation of horrific events like Alien did, Alien 3 or say The Thing could be key to Ramp up the Horror....

A Alien Covenant Sequel certainly gives opportunity to exploit this.. especially if we visit these Colonists a few years after they arrive on Origae-6 ;)

Regarding Budget...

I agree that Disney are not going to be in the game of risking a $150-200M unless they really think they could make $400M Bare Minimum.   You can bet FOX was not expecting the returns that AC got.... i think FOX expected something closer or even more than Prometheus had taken.

Doing things on a Budget, is hard if they pay well known cast members, and if the movie is set in SPACE or on a SHIP/STATION and then introducing a number of Xenomorphs... depending how the budget on them is spent.

I think a AVP Special Effects Budget per Xenomorph per Minute is not going to be super Expensive if the next movie introduces only 1-2 of them.

If Origae-6 is similar to Planet 4 Minus any signs of previous Civilization then i think indeed  i think a budget of $75 - 100M as of now could work, especially if we get a kind of AFTER-MATH movie with not a large cast.

Some very good points raised...

I would add my comments about the Beast being Cooked apply to the route it was taken and has been, as far as how a continuation like this will Forever change the way we view our Xenomorph, in regards to how Awe Inspiring it was in Alien, even Aliens to a degree.

Sadly the Beast is being relegated to nothing more than Bio-Weapon, used in mass.... and so its kind of much like how the Iconic T-800 had lost that Awe Inspiring Sparkle after the first TWO movies, as well it was not Unique but just a Mass Produced Killing Machine made to Hunt down Humans.

If we  continue the David Creator Route then expand this to War of the Worlds in context to any expansion showing David sending out Hordes of Xenomorphs against Humans and Engineers.

Then the Xenomorph would be to David as the T-800 is to the Cyberdyne Systems  Main Computer.

I think the Original Xenomorphs could be used, but if not done so correctly and used too much, then they just get relegated to being technically Davids Army of T-800's  

Does not mean they cant be Deadly, its just they would forever loose that same appeal that ALIEN gave us,  used sparingly like in Alien and Alien Isolation i think the Beast could go 1-2 more rounds.

even Alien Isolation is limited, if they make say 2 more sequels where its once again same type Game-Play...  vs 1-2 Xenomorphs all game....    Its at this point something NEW has to be added.

The same would apply to the movie Franchise.

That quote "if we are kind, it will be a kind world" when combined with the Aurora Nature Boy Lyrics from the Trailer certainly push me in a certain direction to Davids Actions in Future.

Certainly when we consider RS claimed the next movie would be less Xenomorph and more AI and he said "what kind of a World would David Build/Create"

These certainly point me to a direction, that i feel we are going and certainly what i have for a basis to how i would explore the sequel.

It cant be about David Straight up just going to turn 2000 colonist into Eggs then use them on Mankind... not how the comments about where we are going next point too.

@ignorantGuy

Still is a interesting point though.... we really dont know for sure what kind of Defensive Technology these beings posses..

Alien Engineers they appeared to have some kind of Devices that threw out like a Invisible Force that would take out opponents, some kind of Energy/Anti Gravity Weapon that basically allows them to attack opponents like a Jedi/Sith kind of Force Push attack.

Prometheus and Alien Covenant appears to show us these guys dont appear to have any Weaponry at all apart from the Black Goo, which again i ponder is actually not intended as a Bio-Weapon, just that it has been used as such.

The Comics show they have Weapons... and we have to ask is it a bit odd such a Advanced Species have never invented or used any kind of Weaponry in its past?

So indeed it allows our imaginations to run, and certainly Bio-Mechanical Walkers like the AT-ST/AT-ST in Star Wars etc would be interesting.

"And let's bring an end to the Engineer height war"

Certainly think we have to agree and accept a smaller height, it is kind of interesting they gave us the 7-7.5ft (depends on Human working on the Sculpture next to it )Tall Engineer Anatomical Study which puts that Engineer at about the same height as Ian Whyte's Engineer.   Because at least it gives us something thats not contradictory to Prometheus... because well to build a exact scale Replica of the Prometheus Set (Pilot Room) the Cryo-Pods are suited for 7.5ft tall beings, so making larger ones so that Dr Shaw looked small inside in the Crossing would have meant a Larger Scale than Prometheus.

The various Engineer Bodies in the Plaza depending on shots, seemed to show some appeared to be about Human Height so 6ft Ball Park, some seemed maybe 6.5-7ft.... but there was a few shots where some appeared to be about 8ft tall.

And the Interesting thing with the Planet 4 Engineers is the Actual Live Action Scene showed us they had varying heights, what appeared to be Females, and maybe younger Engineers and some with slightly different skin tones.

This could be why RS mentioned about how there are many version of us (Mankind) why cant there be many versions of them...   I think this comment does not have to be about the LV-223 Engineers vs Planet 4 ones... it could be..

But it could also apply to how Humans come in different sizes and skin tones and so WHY NOT the Engineers.

So indeed i think as far as Engineers we have seen goes, it seems we have been clearly shown these beings maybe have a Female Height of 6-6.5ft and a Male of 7-8ft and so indeed the Average Engineer would indeed be about the 7ft mark or just over, so Ian Whyte would actually be your typical Average Engineer... like a say a Guy Pearce is about average Male Human Height.

We could still have the issue regarding the Space Jockeys 13-15ft Actual Height, but this could just have to be accepted as a Oversight..

But we could be introduced to a related Race who are taller, or maybe as we Humans can have a few who are 7ft to 8 ft tall, then why cant the Engineers have some 12ft tall folk too.

I watched it Saturday evening on HBO and I just finished watching it a second time tonight (Sunday) while I was cooking and eating dinner.

I got lucky and got 3 months of HBO for free, SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, I naturally will watch A:C for free.  It may be the only movie I watch on HBO.

*gets a closer look*

From what I can tell, by the design of the bottle and the color of the fluid, looks like he's drinking Gatorade drink *shrugs*

Or some similar drink.

thank you BigDave
I had not thought about connecting to ancient human civilizations compared to Planet 4's engineering civilization, an excellent observation.
In David I believe very much that he is a Lucifer as a lost man.
After all, if we are kind, it will be a kind world.

"Au Revoir Shoshanna"

bump. and sticky. 

In light of recent topics on this forum I think this thread needs new life. Who know, the future of the Alien franchise could be amongst us with these fine cinematic artists.

Embedded the Newt/Bishop clip into the OP for you too dk :)

Thanks dk :)

I dont think it would work as a film; A book definitely, or an episode (think Out of Gas Firefly) for a tv series. 

Definitely a risky premise....but if the bulk of the story filled in an intriguing backstory from the lost crew, plus have some exciting scenes (maybe a few EVA's, zero-G parts, flooded ship sections etc) and a real close exploration of maybe the, lore, mythos + some science and biology of the xeno remains? Really build up the suspense. It could be a fun and scary experience.

 I guess the exploring crew would need to suspect there are still nasties on the ship, to keep them on their toes.

IRaptus That is a great idea! I am still watching Black Mirror and notice that some shows start with the reveal and the rest leads up to the reveal- with lots of twists and turns if that makes sense.

For your specific idea, the only way that could really work is to have no trailers or at least give mis direction but do not let the audience know that there will be no xeno. It would be risky, but that could be a fresh direction and I think a lot of fans would dig it.

Thats a great idea dk, I love it! 

There is a film on Netflix at the moment called Air, if you have seen it. Its nothing amazing but it gave me an idea for a slow burn Alien feature.

A crew hunt down and explore a missing ship.... The whole story would revolve around them slowly moving through this empty dead ship overcoming environmental hazards as they go. They start finding evidence of something onboard the ship but its all already happened. They have to piece together the events, timeline etc to try and understand what they are seeing. All leading up to finding the dead husk of a xeno, an eggmorphed body and fresh egg. 

Ends with someone getting hugged.

But there is no live xenomorph in it at all. It is all just suspense and slow reveals. Still plenty of horror and action but the focus is on piecing together the xenomorph life-cycle from the past tense and from a different perspective. You could flesh it out as much or little as you wanted, but it would be a new angle to a something we know so well.  

Dark Nebula It appears the Engieneer is drinking Tranya?

IRaptus Indeed, there are forum members who do stuff on their own dime and time that can deliver some good entertainment. You Tube has no shortage of independent shorts/ mini movies that are pretty heavy hitters. One just needs to look around a bit. It might only be 10-15 minutes, but it is all killer with no filler!

Who knows- maybe the Alien franchise could use a new crew of indie folks used to working on tight budgets to deliver the goods. Oh wait- that's exactly what a mini series could do. 

I agree there seemed to be a lot of wasted money in AC. I would even say the same for Prometheus. Guy Pierce likely made some good bank but his character was woefully under utilized. His TED Talk and Conversations with David  eclipsed the old man role imo.  I don't know the answer but maybe budget allocation is more important- like writing.

dk

I was not clear, but when talking about budget I was referring to the fact that Alien brand is not likely to bring make more than 300 mil in cinemas, so the budgets will likely never be bigger than 70 mil. So big RS style extravaganzas (war of the worlds style) maybe out of question in the future.

AC seemed very wasteful, Actors appearing for 10 seconds... Concept art binned in favor of things from Alien Engineers. 

I think it was I moon girl (?) who also brought up SAW. That was amazingly intense, suspenseful and articulate film on a shoe-string budget. It was a $1M project greenlight film. Big Budget is not the be all and end all. 
Hell, some of the fan made shorts (with no budget) you shared dk are proof of that!!

Sadly you know who is a master of those types of films you speak of dk. The big climatic reveal

David Fincher....

ignorantGuy I am not sure about budget. There are many movies, indie projects and such that are very well done. A case in point was when IRaptus cited a comparison of budgets/practical effects and over all impact between AC and Pan's Labyrinth.

We must take into account the medium however. For movies I think it is pretty much cooked, as with the monster comes expectations like dark corridors, getting infected, etc... All seem many times, even if they made them good they would be derivative by now.

And we also must take into account the budget... 

@BigDave

I was only making fun of the fist fighting antics presented in the comics ...

But in all seriousness I feel that the Engineers would rather use something more akin to Protoss dragoons and stalkers from Starcraft than tanks. I mean war machines made by fusing a disabled/volunteering soldier to a mechanical contraption, like a Gigeresque sphinx.

I have to say I am impressed with Parralox seen in the above links Ati.

The graphics in X Minus One are really great. Thank you.

I did like the cover of the Depeche Mode in the We are Walter campaign but Parralox nails it. I last saw Depeche Mode in 2005. Great selection to get Mafalda to warm up to New Wave movement in the 80's and now refinements from Parralox. 

I agree IRaptus that there is too much mythos to cover in feature films and that mini series would be the way to go.

For a feature film, I want to see how the OG Xeno comes to be and how it connects to Alien. 

One way would be to have that missing link but not seen in its glory until the climax of the movie. Prior to that, we would only hear it and maybe see foggy glimpses of parts of it- allowing individuals to build a mental picture of what it might be. Also some strange deaths can build more anticipation. And they need to stop with all the trailers- AC would have been better without all the teasers and trailers.

BigDave i agree with what you say, but you paint a sad picture. I don't want to see the beast cooked, but I don't want there to be an end to the franchise either :(

So moving forward we cant have hives of Xenos (Starship Troopers - space bugs) and we cant have single stalker xeno (Space Jason Voorhees). These scenario's have been done to death in films/books/games anyhow. A growing voice of fans are weary of the AI angle.

Perhaps a tv series is a way forward? To me the universe, mythos and lore of the Alien Universe needs to open up and expand significantly, and the threat of the Xeno's escalated but with it turning into Starship Troopers.

I cant see a way this can be done via feature films. 2 hour snapshots of a massive universe is just not sufficient to cover enough ground. 

A series like The Expanse, The 100, Firefly, Battlestar Galactica etc could allow this expansion. There are still many ancient evils to explore in the Alienverse, some of which have been touched on in the books and comics. A lot however involve an expanded hierarchy of Queens and Xeno royalty, a concept that already pisses off a large faction of the fanbase. If not this, perhaps explore the Engineers. Or cover Earth Hive as a show. Or the Neomorphs. 

On a side note if you have ever read any of the books my big gripe is how underwhelming ALL of them have been regarding Queens/Queens Mother/Empress + the Palatine/Praetorian Xeno Royalty.

These things should be almost untouchable and the ultimate ancient evil. There is great suspense and build-up to these things but inevitably in the books anyone can just waltz on in and shoot 'em up. If this path was taken for a tv series you could build up each one per season. 

I can sit in awe and wonder at these John Bolton images for hours, imagining the horrors they could bring. There is still life in the beast yet. Im not endorsing the Queen hierarchy angle but it would escalate the Xeno threat, add lore and depth to the franchise...if also sell it out a bit. 

I don't have the best eyesight...

According to the production crew, the mummified engineer corpses in the plaza were all supposed to be 7-8ft.

Because most of the corpses were lying on their knees, differently arranged, and of different camera angles a lot of people concluded they are human-scaled.

In Prometheus, the Engineer actors were 7ft+ tall, and they used different camera angles and other tricks to make them look bigger.

And let's bring an end to the Engineer height war.

@Gavin

Just found my way back here after many months, and I still think there is a giant hole with these "motes."  Like you said, with them being singular and mature lifeforms themselves, and being a result of the black goo and not the black goo, themselves, them entering a host like that doesn't make sense with what results from them (a single neomorph).  There is no way they logically - even by the serie's logic - enter a host and then somehow breakdown and recombined to create a single creature.  They also aren't injecting black goo into the host. 

By the movie's own logic they are a delivery system for an egg or embryo for the next stage of development of the creature. The entire logic in the Alien universe of the black goo (in small(er) amounts) is not that it creates/morphs into mature life on its sake, and in fact in it's most prolific forms destroys life.  But that it infects existing life/sexual reproduction to create/reproduce a hyper-aggressive mutant variation which acts as a weapon.

So I don't really get the biological logic of the motes as "wasps" in AC once they leave their hive by literally burrowing into a hosts and hitting their blood stream.  The only thing I can come up with since it's not unknown for parasites to kill themselves to reproduce is that they burrow into the host releasing their egg/embryo before they are overcome by being stuck in a hosts body, but then that raises questions as to what happens to the hundreds or thousands of other eggs.embryos even accounting for the possibility that many of the "motes" perish before being able to inject their embryo in the host.  Maybe the strongest resulting embryo cannibalizes the other eggs/resulting embryos within the hosts?

It's literally a small detail, but a very important one that the movie kind of skips over.

(would not post the other day so posting here)

EDIT:  Just looked and quickly done some rough scale work, and i estimate the Engineer Head to belong to a 8.5ft Tall Engineer maybe pushing near 9ft Tops.

My average actual estimate using various views and relation to a few cast members is 8ft 9" approx.

@Ignorantguy

I would be up for that ;)

Imagine some kind of HR Giger/Engineer Bio-Mechanical Combat Suit/Tank Mechanized Armour?

Now that would be very interesting..... maybe something for Ridley Scotts War of the Worlds Alien Franchise plans?

I will make a more invested comment tomorrow...

For now i will add that the BEAST IS COOKED but we can go a few rounds more, by adding some Sauce and Condiments (change a few things) because going the Out in the Open attacking people route like we saw in AR, the AVP movies and AC to a degree and so like Aliens, a few more times will not COOK but CREMATE the Beast.

The Beast needs to be used very well, and not pushed down our throats (pun intended) too much...

But the other side of the coin are Fans who would love nothing more than Xeno after Xeno after Xeno....  even if it reduces the Xenomorph to basically Star Ship Troopers Bugs... their is a Popcorn Market for Fans who love this kind of stuff.

Even introducing a Alien 3/Alien kind of take on a Lone Xenomorph cant be done over and over, because well the Xenomorph would be no more than a Space Jason Voorhees

Certainly good points, as i mentioned in other threads, if the Characters dont connect with us, or get us to feel for them, then there is no Horror in their deaths no matter how Gory it is.

A Prime Example would be......    Imagine ALIEN 3....

Ripley gets Clemens to Examine Newt (as per movie) now she is Dead, this may be sad for some viewers.... but then IMAGINE if she had a BACK-BURSTER Scene like what happened to Ledwood in AC....   imagine how shocking this would have been especially at the time Alien 3 came out and if the EFFECTS where very good.

Even though Poor NEWT was already Dead, a scene like this would surely have a great effect on the audience.  Because of how we felt about her Character in Aliens, and also pushing boundaries with a  brutal death to a Child on Screen.

This would HIT Home with the SHOCK Value... as well as Feeling for the Character.

Totally agree with that Analysis of what kind of went wrong with AC, Waltermorph ;)

I find the AI elements interesting, but it does take the Alien Origins out of the Xenomorph, the route we are on now is nothing like the Vision that stuck on peoples minds the FIRST TIME they saw the Derelict, the Space Jockey Set and Cargo Hold.

"to think of it engineers are like monks who have refused life of comfort derived from technology and any other function that would lead them to sin"

This certainly is very good point, one that is very likely the case, its also something i think could be used to explain the Star Maps after the year 1AD,  because while Modern Civilization with all the Vices and Sinful ways came from the Roman Empire and other Empires around the Middle East/Eurasian areas...   some places lived more Tribal Ways like the Native Indians, and a number of Tribal People live such basic lives even TODAY..   I like to think that the Christ Connection was a Emisary as RS had said, and that many of these were sent around the World and maybe these guys did the Star Maps but many Cultures turned their backs on these ways and killed the Emissaries apart from a few Cultures who adopted and kept to a more ritualistic and basic LIFE, like we see those Engineers on Planet 4, and this explains the say Hawaiian and Mayan Star Maps, Cultures like these DID-NOT turn their backs no, offend their Emissaries and the ways of the Engineers and NEVER killed their Emissaries.

Regarding DAVID...  i really hope he is explored a bit more like the Lucifer Character from Paradise Lost... who was kind of a Anti-Hero but his story was portrayed as not really being a Evil Being..... he was no more Evil, than the Rebels in Star Wars, or those rising against the Rule of the Machines in Terminator.

I hope we can see David evolved to a Character we can Empathize with a little..

I think a aftermath movie where we follow a incoming Ship/Crew who arrive at the Origae-6 Colony long after a horrific series of events could work...

But it would have to not be too close to another Aliens... it would have to thrown in some different threats.. and so discovering Eggs and Xenomorphs would not be enough if i am honest.  But something different could work.

If Alien Covenant never had the Spores/Neomorphs and it was a straight up Egg/Face Hugger Flick i feel it may have pleased some Fanboys more.... but i feel it would have lacked originality because of this.

Pretty much can agree with the whole of that Thoughts_Dreams i have touched on a more detailed response in other threads, regarding how its hard to invest interest in a Robot Character and how AC seemed to not flesh out its Characters much... they all felt near enough like the Star Trek unnamed Away Team Members you know are going to Die and know your not gonna care about it.

I think a real way to invoke Terror is you always have to have a Character built up that you sure as HELL feel is going to survive then place them in situations where you feel they may just not survive.   For this TRICK to work you need very good believable secondary Characters to the main 1-2 Characters.  Secondary Characters where you feel these guys could well survive and also helps if you can care about or connect with them.

with Alien Covenant, you can tell that Daniels and Tennessee will survive, the only real secondary Characters who would fit the BILL for the TRICK i described above was Lope and Walter, but both of these MEET their Deaths OFF-SCREEN so that was a wasted potential.... 

When you see a movie Cast, a read the Synopsis, its when you look at the Cast and then you can tell who the 1-3 MAIN Characters are, you can bet 1-2 survive, its then the secondary 2-3 Characters that have to be believable where you really cant be 100% sure if they would die... you have to be thinking more than 50/50 these guys may make it, or they have to have such a Good Character and Back ground that you can feel their pain/terror.. before a movie really works.

A lot of movies lack this though... horror kind of movies that is... you could see the cast of 15 say, and most of the time you can name the 2-3 survivors and get them right, and know the rest are likely to die... so their deaths have no real meaning.

The THING is a prime example... the first time anyone sees this or sees the cast without knowing the Plot... you can surely tell Kurt Russell's Character makes it but then the rest of the cast, your kinda finding it hard to predict ok which of these guys are gonna make it to the last 3?

The 2011 Prequel, was just not the same it was more predictable you knew Windstead (lloyd) and  Edgerton  (Carter) would make the last 3.  You would kinda be able to guess that the others apart from maybe Thomsen (Sanders) would definitely not make it.. so it just was not as tense.

Honestly, I just want to see him finish it for the sake of finishing it.  But I hope to god he veers away from David/AI as the central figure in every movie post-Prometheus.  It takes all of the mystery and scariness out.

I didn't hate AC, but I found it to be a major let-down.  I was expecting a fright-fest, at the very least after finding it be David-focused, and ended up literally not flinching once during the entire movie.  It lacked all of the primal fear which has become a hallmark of the Alien series.

It's funny, because a lot of fair-weather fans were confused by Prometheus since it didn't have any of the familiar baddies in it.  But I actually liked how Prometheus was setting up the origin of the Xenomorphs were seeing in the original series.  I found the idea of the Engineers are the creators of both of us as fascinating and potentially terrifying...and then because of some bad/mixed reviews they over-corrected and make AC essentially an entire rebuke of Prometheus.  The Engineers are short-shrifted and basically pushed into the background and David elevated...'cause of Scott's fascination with evil AI, or some bull.  I don't mind an AI component, but it's never been about the AI; it's been about the human characters.  They could have easily kept David in as an antagonist, but had Shaw as his adversary in a sort of a civil war or sorts and the team getting caught in the middle or something.  It would have made the story much more expansive and interesting and better set up the climax in the third movie.

Totally agree....

A main part of the Franchise was to deal with fear of the unknown, a unseen Terror and Predicaments people are just not cut out for and then seeing how they deal with the situation.   Its what really made ALIEN what is was.

For anything like this to happen, you need Characters you can relate to, so you can feel their fear and tension and when characters are not done well or invested in then the audience will just not connect and thus wont feel the fear/tension.

The best Example is Star Trek, a lot of episodes we get the Away Team sent down which includes a number of the main Cast, and yet its the unknown members of the crew who usually face the most fear/terror and bad situations but these are throw away characters and so we dont connect with them and so when Away Team member 5 and 6 Die, they have no real effect on us because we are simply never connected to the Character.

Sadly for Prometheus and Alien Covenant (you could say Alien Resurrection too) nearly all the Characters just felt like that unnamed member of the Star Trek away team.

I can see you point regarding a Robot... if a Robot is the main Focus of the movies, and especially if they are the Antagonist, how can people feel a sense of connection to any situations a None-Human Character gets into.... AC left little room for other Characters i can agree with that.