Comments (Page 564)
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I like the general direction of your idea, JONDERSPUP-69!. There's one problem. A:C takes place in 2104 while the Hadley's Hope Colony is established roughly 50 years later by Weyland-Yutani, in 2157.
Not to mention the Nostromo-Incident in 2122, when there was no colony yet.
It would need quite the "story" to make that work. ;)
@ NonsenseBody - If you search this site, you will find translations of the Engineer & David's Prometheus conversation. I believe it was titled: The Engineer Speaks? I believe it was Sukal who deciphered it?
The name Weyland has a strong connection with the 'superman of his day'. When did the letter 'd' get added, and by whom?
Lawrence of Arabia - 'David isn't going anywhere :D'
Or he'll be back. :)
So that is an Ultramorph if I know correctly. :)
"One of the things I enjoyed most about Alien was its subtle satirical content. Science fiction films offer golden opportunities to throw in little scraps of information that suggest enormous changes in the world. There's a certain potency in those kinds of remarks. Weylan Yutani for instance is almost a joke, but not quite. I wanted to imply that poor old England is back on its feet and has united with the Japanese, who have taken over the building of spaceships the same way they have now with cars and supertankers. In coming up with a strange company name I thought of British Leyland and Toyota, but we couldn't use "Leyland-Toyota" in the film. Changing one letter gave me "Weylan," and "Yutani" was a Japanese neighbor of mine."
—Ron Cobb, "The Authorized Portfolio of Crew Insignias from The United States Commercial Spaceship Nostromo Designs and Realizations" by John Mollo and Ron Cobb
hox - 'Coincidence?'
Yes, it is. The name comes from Leyland.
@ Ingeniero - Great post!! So disturbingly awesome!! Classic HORROR!!
Nice eye! I believe there is some relevance to that as the parallel is uncanny. Peter Weyland was a blacksmith of our times.
Ingeniero - Glad if I can help your investigation. I'm sure Hallett is working on the next chapter.
This is what should happen: Space jockeys return to their destroyed Capital/Holy site. Space Jockeys are pissed but have no idea how this happened or who did it. Space Jockeys fix and reboot Walter (who is himself, 'pissed" at David and in love with Daniels). Walter helps the Space Jockeys find David which is also his best free ride to Daniels. They find The Covenant on LV-246 (It has to be LV-246 because that will tie the story into the lost colony in "Aliens") and find themselves in a similar situation as the Space Marines and Ripley in "Aliens". This will only work if the Space Jockeys Characters were developed before their arrival and during the fight by giving them some Subtitled dialogue and even names . Otherwise no-one will really care when they get killed (even though it will have a "COOL" factor regardless). This would lead to a lot of amazing sequences of xenomorphs struggling against Space Jockeys. Each side Led by, or working with, their own robot. David on one side and Walter on the other. One added touch would be to introduce some alternate creatures developed during David's experiments on the Covenant and on LV-246. Whatever happens, it just has to end with A Space Jockey ship full of face hugger eggs and the Covenant has to have plenty of colonists still in cryo sleep so they can eventually be awoken by Walter or the ships computer so they can go on to be the colonists who get overrun in "Aliens". Boom! I like it. "Number One..... Make it So"
Love Dane Hallet, really cool guy with fantastic talent. I got the Art and Making of Covenant but was disappointed we didn't get more of David's sketches so hopefully he can get them collected in a book. :D
As usual, I agree with @Lawrence of Arabia.
To this I would add that just because you don't like the movie, it doesn't mean Ridley "screwed up big time". There's enough mystery remaining of all kinds to have mystique, and to my mind the thought that this remorseless and relentless killing machine could essentially be the result of human fallibility is every bit as intriguing as some unknown history. Am I talking about the Alien or David? I'll leave you to think about that.
Covenant needed to focus on David since he is the narrative link between these films, the main character. David creating the Xenomorphs makes sense, his goal of the perfect organism. The perfect survivor. It also links all the synthetic subplots throughout the original saga. The Alien is a biomechanical weapon, so of course it would have to be made and that a synthetic would find it compelling. Other than that his process feels like a huge tribute to H.R.Giger with David being him incarnate. I get where you are coming from with the mystique but that's been long gone since Aliens and AvP. There is some solace with the Xenomorphs being the descendant of whatever the Engineers made beforehand (be that the Neomorphs or Deacon) so it wasn't entirely made from scratch since David used there technology but hybridized/perfected it into the titular monster.
Stoked FOX is moving ahead with Ridley's plans :D Best news all day! I hope they stick with the Covenant plot and what happens with David and the Engineers on Origae-6.
David isn't going anywhere :D
"I trust Ridley [Scott] and Emma [Watts] to know the right story when they find it". This likely means Logan's 3 page draft for a sequel has already been scrapped, and that new writers will be hired.
Doesn't necessarily mean they are still looking or that they scrapped Logan's draft. It could mean that but her statement could also be taken as they trust Ridley's decisions even if it's in Logan's script.
"..they can also find a planet or a storyline or a villain that also lives in that universe that can be groundbreaking." This is a clear sign that David storyline will be downplayed or dropped altogether in the sequel.
Ridley isn't going to just drop David, he's built him too much to just toss to the wayside and he created the Xenomorphs. Plus he finds the character interesting as did most audiences with them saying Fassbender was the highlight of the film. He's also the Ripley of these prequels as most of the production team noted. Snider could even be talking about David.
When universes are as rich as “Alien,” they can stay in a too familiar groove — in which case you’re in trouble
What I took away was stick less to the original formula which cooked the beast (chasing through dark corridors) and more original and new (like the Engineers, Origae-6, synthetics). Everyone complained Covenant was too familiar and it looks like they listened.
Congratulations Blackwinter-witch on your work and the long, hard slog towards publishing Alien: Manticore. You're a wonderful, innovative writer and I wish for you the very best (country coffer-sized wealth) upon publishing. Thank you for sharing it here.
It is wonderful to see the new eyes, writing coming to the Alien universe joylitt.
Ati, I bet Ridley Scott has a mean embouchure.
You don't need AVP. There are enough hints and leads in the canon suggesting that the morphs are very old or at least older than Fassbender ... errm ... David. ;)
I don't think the Alien Vs Predator movies can be fully associated with Ridley Scotts movies in terms of cannon. Alien vs Predator movies are just fan fun made movies that can exist in there own universe of continuity. They don't exactly hold up with the original 4 alien movies either.
@Fatheredcat - AVP is not canon.
Good post! Totally agree and can't wait for the next installment!
From: ATI
I think it means they see our support and know what changes should be made to satisfy every fan. I think Scott will get the money. Thank you every fan here and everywhere for your positive and constructive work.
I'm with IRaptus and Blackwinter-witch in this. Having read several "official" novels beside the A:C novel (all approved by FOX btw) I don't think the crazy robot *yawn* "created" the Xenos. But alas you never know what the old man comes up with next.
Thinking about it I believe they kept it intentionally ambiguous to have a cop out in case the whole thing blows up in their faces. Wich it actually did.
Wow it always appeals to my vanity to see someone act as a proxy for everything I have been saying in my own particular idiosyncratic way.
The lack of empathy and heart which is responsible for the absence of mediation on the one hand and counter balanced by the emphasis on "bladerunner hijacking alien" narrative is in terms of connectivity central to the issue of the movie.
Its also really crucial when you judge a movie to do something very novel for a fan site, critique the movie, not the shorts or the narration or the special additions or the books or the novelisation. A movie should work as a coherent whole in its own right. THATS what gets people to the cinema.
IF you view Shaw's arc from that perspective alone the movie is indecipherable. I can talk about the crossing, the full scale library of pornographic imagery the novelisation until the cows come home but it ain't in the movie and if ain't in the movie it means didly squat. What we have is a message, a grave, memorabilia, some drawings and a cadaver and a eulogy to love, and the only way to make sense of that is to say it makes no sense and David is a mad robot and your supposed to hang the entire series on that and care about it, now that is nuts because thats not how story works for most human beings.
You have probably read some of my speculations about how this should have gone and they are about adding drama and conflict in real time rather than off the screen conspiracy.
Good to see the debate has moved on to sensible well thought out critique rather than empty defence and rationalisation or on the other hand micro analysing supposed plot holes and people being people which includes being stupid.
It is always important to remember that it wasn't all bad either, a good deal of hard work is on the screen it just could have been a good deal better.
"They can also..."
Dont worry at all
ScorpioStar you can count me in too.
I like Covenant more than Prometheus so I think we are going into the right direction.
The next film will have everything: Engineers, solid characters and script. I only hope we will not have to wait too many years for it.
Neoprimal Empathy and heart. Covenant was lacking in those departments. I also had a much stronger connection to Elizabeth Shaw and her strong will, her quest for answers. I would add that the next movies need more conflict and less conspiracy.
On one hand, I get that the franchise is RS' baby. I mean, Alien IS Sir Ridley Scott for the most part - however, I do think that he's fallen into a groove of having the movie be more about the Android and this psychological and complex connection between creator and created that has sort of created a distraction within the movies. You want to go there, do an AI/Android movie and let that be that. I want a movie about Aliens to be a story based on Aliens and humans and hey, if an Android is there, fine! but not in such an overwhelming capacity.
I think we all get the importance of these artificial beings in Alien. One has been around in every single movie in some form or another and they've all played important roles.
I'm definitely a fan. It was a bit before my time to catch it in the cinema but I sure did enjoy them as a kid. I'm sure saw 3-current at the cinema. Perhaps I'm too forgiving, I love all of the movies. My favorites are 2 and 4 (yeah, can you believe I love 4?!).
That being said, a major letdown for me was the fate of Shaw. I almost needed her to be another Ripley or at the very least make it out alive, somehow. I'm pretty high on the empathetic spectrum, which simply means I'm susceptible to certain scenes in movies if I really get 'into' the movie. If I care about the character. Not particularly stuff like gore or whatever, the psychological and "can you imagine how that feels" kind of thing. It's one of the reasons this franchise appeals to me so very much. It's genuinely frightening and terror inspiring in me due to the nature of these things and these poor space faring folk. Finding out what happened to Shaw not only ruined the movie for me but almost wrecked me. In my mind I can just imagine the sheer terror she must have felt. First of all he completely betrayed her. Then he experimented on her. We don't know how far he took it before she actually succumbed to the pain. For all we know she could have been ripped to shreds before he finally let her die. That got to me. It's not something deserving of a character who is caring enough to put him back together and has the survival instincts to staple a gaping wound back up and then carry on carrying on.
Anyway, as I was saying, on one had I want to see him finish his vision. I want him to tell his story. I'm just worried about the characters involved, lol.
On the other hand and moving on somewhat, I'd love to see Neil or James do another movie. Their movies have heart and this is what I want out of the whole thing. My dream and hope - if not for the very next movie then perhaps the one after that, is to give the series a bit more heart whatever that would entail. I want to invest in a character and have this character move on from movie to movie until they get some kind of happy ending, lol (naive, I know!) and then pass the baton to someone else.
I've listened to some novelizations I really loved and would love to see those turned into movies. One was based on what happens between Alien and Aliens, claiming that Ripley was actually found by another crew before the ones that actually rescued her. I won't go into details but yeah, they went through some hell and it neatly wraps up without messing with Aliens. The other is based on what actually went down on LV-426 before Ripley and the Marines get there. I'd love to see this brought to the screen too. The former would be difficult since SW while still extremely great looking (imho) is now aged, so that could only happen if she was recast or the franchise got some kind of soft reboot, but the latter could work with some minor CGI magic.
Finally, I would vote for NB doing either a reboot or perhaps some offshoot of Alien. Give him a chance. I love almost all of his movies and think he has great ideas, he's def. a scifi head - plus, his movies tend to have heart. Sure there may be some political dust in them, but all of these guys seem to have a need to do this, it is a part of their art, this isn't just shooting a movie to shoot a movie and make money. They are also making a statement. As long as it's not heavy handed, it's ok in my eyes. I'd also as I said previously, vote for James Cameron but he likely has his hands, feet, etc. full with Avatar and that world, which is his baby.
I'm obsessed with their language, I'll be using that link, thanks
Two matters came into my mind after I had written my post.
1) The next film will not come quickly.
2) They must not make the same mistake as Covenant and listen to an element of the fanbase. Deep fans of all franchises share a commonality of view. I have been associated with three and they all share a very strong repeated behavioural quality they are highly conservative and essential demand more of the same a handful of people recognise the need to "stay in the spirit AND move on".
For the much bigger audience unless it is fresh, vigorous, creative and audacious they would much rather just go back to the original. Repetition in commercial terms is the law of diminishing returns.
There is nothing wrong being passionate about our hobbies but it is much more difficult to add to that perspective and put yourself in the broader audiences place.
The next film needs reviews which basically say "Yes I recognised the world in which it was set but boy was I surprised go see this film its fresh!!"
The dumb scientist arguments are right for the wrong reasons. The audience see it coming so they assume the players will to, its not about protocols, its about repetition makes everything ironic. Kane was as stupid as Oram or Milburn its just he was first.
You have to make a film where no one sees anything coming... or not go in that direction go in a direction no one is expecting.
Michelle Johnston Exactly. This is promising, it suggests more creativity will be invested on the next project. And this is the first official confirmation I see that Ridley Scott is still on board. However, I never saw his name along with that of Emma Watts, production president and vice chairman for 20th Century Fox. I wonder what that means. Snider also said something like "you are in trouble when you stay in a too familiar groove". I predict there will be a lot of discussions and negotiations and Fox won't greenlight the first pitch they get.
if one looks at the entire interview and its context then we have :-
1) A new CEO who has taken over within the last year.
2) A recognition that the Alien Universe, one of Fox's franchises is rich with potential but that essentially you can either
a) Retread.
or
b) Come up with a fresh invigorating story, setting or villain.
She acknowledges that A:C was disappointing at the box office.
It is therefore entirely logical to take the view that she believes to capture that additional larger audience way beyond the core fan base you need a terrific story that is fresh and that the reason that A:C was disappointing was because it was none of those things.
That seems to me the only logical explanation and if so it is encouraging because A:C was a well made well executed film which did not capture the wider audience because it was routine and predictable. (Everyone dies because of a Xenomorph supported by a robot)
I am quiet sure she believes that what captures the wider audience is not pulse rifles or dealing with a perceived lack of risk protocols but a fantastic story where the jeopardy and proposition is genuinely unique so that we are genuinely immersed and genuinely frightened and we can identify with the character(s) and desire for survival.
The only issue she did not address is whether a franchise like Alien is the correct place to weave in a philosophical underpin to the story I hope her view is that a crucial part of the Alien Universe is its unique and uncomfortable view of creation. Otherwise its just another "Bug Hunt".
Clearly it is recognised that A:C was a disappointment and she identifies how a franchise to survive and grow needs to deliver, thats a good place to start.
But remember, the higher the attendance is, usually the more time it takes to putter out of theaters. World of KJ member was nice enough to answer some questions for comparison: Officially, Kogyotsushin has Prometheus's opening weekend at $3.6 million with 200,180 in admissions. That led to a final take of $23.3 million with 1.24M in attendance.
138,297 in attendance is a pretty massive drop. Unless it shows some substantial legs $10 million is the best that can be hoped for with a likely embarrassing attendance number. (Again, unless there are some significant box office price changes.)
It's also important to note that pirating is not a big issue in Japan. The laws against pirating are far more strict than they are in America--It's not that it doesn't happen, but it's not as prominent of a "market" (black market?) as it is in the States. Not enough to make much of a dent in audience attendance anyway.
I dunno what FOX has planne but yeah I'm with you, especially on the points of ship-to-ship combat.
I make a deliberate point of putting that into ALIEN: Manticore 'Paradise', and just to assure people it is NOT going to be:
STAR TREK: OMG we're hopelessly outclassed and they're using us for gunnery practice!
I establish in ALIEN: Manticore's prologue that the ship is pretty heavily armed.
Time to get the guns firing.
Roger55 The source is an interview to Fox's CEO published by Variety. The Alien franchise is addressed in one single question. But the rest of the interview is interesting too to put things into context.
http://variety.com/2017/film/features/stacey-snider-21st-century-fox-first-year-1202563799/
RIPLEY (Smiling): Not all the way out.
ALIEN: Manticore has a direct sequel in ALIEN: Manticore 'Paradise', and yes, heh there'll be cute little neomorphs scampering around.
So cute as babies, then they grow up, bite heads off people...
ALIEN: LV-426 is an Indirect follow-up, as it's set five years after the events of ALIEN: Manticore. It's my take on doing ALIENS as-per staying true to the original creature from ALIEN.
And if folks think they had a rough time in ALIENS, well, the poor folks in ALIEN: LV-426 have a much worse time of it. :D
BOTH are in the works, and coming along nicely. I'm focussing on the Final Proof Edit of ALIEN: Manticore, but that'll be done pretty quickly. :)
Great news!, I will cheking out where this source coming from because all this is confusing, I mean the timeline on the story and where it will end this time, David logbook new endevours or a drastic change, Engineers striking back...
Thank you for your compliment Cerulean Blue. I hadn't considered this until I read "during one of my underwater expeditions" in David 8's notes...then, wow.
Blackwinter-witch ohhhh a sequel already in the works?! May I ask, does Manticore involve the Neomorphs at all?
yep I agree 100%, David created an Alien, not THE Alien.
