Sexism and social ignorance in Prometheus

I find your abundance of faith disturbing. There is no indication that history is an increasing march of progress. It does not have to go one way. So I would not assume anything positive about future social attitudes to various groups within that society. In other words, the fact that the Prometheus society would have problematic memes is not at all unrealistic. Also, the fact that Charlie uses mankind is not necessarily problematic, even at face value. Pick yer battles, I think. "Mankind" vs "Humankind" is not the kind of battle worth fighting.

The issue i would have with Holloway would not be a sexist issue. Hiis Scientific/Leadership and communicatiion were in a greater need. In thinking about Holloway's rtreatment of women it seemed he was OK with Shaw but kind of condecending to Vickers. Not much intereaction with Ford. He sort of had an 'I'm the smartest man in the room' thinking and it showed when talking with David. Humankind seems like an awkward word that i don't see coming into mainstream talk so I don't see a problem with mankind.

No, but the use of the word "mankind" is way outdated. Social attitudes toward minorites, women and gays have made huge strides in the last 50 years, don't you think there would be a more socially conscious society by the late 21st century? I do...naive faith or not, logic would lead me to think...I'm not fighting a battle of sexes as that went out-of-date in the 80s. I just think Holloway in particular was still talking like it was 1965.

If one feels cheeky, one could point out there's a "man" in "human" anyway. In fact, there's a "man" in "woman" too. All men were, in fact, at some point.

I realize it's just semantics on one level but Imagine if you were a man in a sexist woman dominated society where women only used the word womankind totally diregarding the role of men in the contribution to society? Wouldn't that start to piss you off after awhile? One would think by the 2080s people getting PhDs in the academic world would be better educated in social etiquette and sensitivity toward women and self-aware androids. How we use language structures reality and one's worldview which is becoming a well accepted mainstream idea these days.

Theseus, regarding the use of 'mankind' versus 'humankind', that one you have to take into account the common colloquilsisms that may not have changed much by 2093 as well as idiomatic expressions. Mankind is just a common way so saying it so I don't think it counts as sexism. Sesxism is a loaded word though and the minuite I saw it I was drawn to read your post. It has that effect on us. Holloway did act like a jerk especially towards synthetics like David. His calling him boy was tantamount to using the N word. Now that is a real issue with him more than anybody else from what they showed. Even Vickers treated him as an equal competitor for Weyland's attention. She clearly didn't like him but she never disrespected him. Even throwing him up against the wall was more like taking on an equal. So I will say here that sexism does not apply to this context. There were sexist characters on the Nostromo in Alien, but that was more of a class warfare too. If Parker and Brett had gotten equal shares, I don't think they would be bitching so much at Ripley. The fact that she out ranked them and got a bigger piece of the contractual pie was what motivated Parker's sexism imo, except for the scene when Ripley was the highest ranking officer and he wouldn't shut up and let her take command while they were trying to figure out what to do.

@Theseus; Actually in the script, Lindelof 's version I believe, Weyland was very compassionate about her ordeal. He even went so far as to yell at one of his associates for being ambivalent about it. There is a link to the script here if you want to read it [url=http://www.prometheus2-movie.com/news/395]UPDATE: Damon Lindelof Confirms 'Paradise' Script is Official[/url]

why do women have legs??? So they can get from the bedroom to the kitchen. Haha

Only jokin! I think sometimes people take things too seriously. Like, oh there's no women in this film, they must be sexist. Or, there's no black people in this film, they must be racist. Chillax!

Irrelevant no matter how you us humans put it just leave it alone.

I totally agree with Necronom 4. I am a woman and nothing in the movie offended me or struck me as sexist. In fact I find Ridley Scott to be very good at portraying women in his movies as strong and independant. He has said in many an interview that his mother was a great influence on him, he loved and respected her very much and saw her as a role model, that connection gave him the confidence to appreciate strong women. Click-->[url=http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/05/13/ridley-scott-s-history-of-directing-strong-women.html]Ridley Scott: My Warrior Women[/url]

Ha ha N4 you disappear and then return with a big splash! Welcome back! This is a good point, and for me ties in with the retro aesthetic on view throughout the film. Another example is Janek smoking aboard the ship. They say Weyland cured cancer, so it could be that people just went back to doing what they do best, indulging their vices. Just one of so many "off" notes that characterize the genius ( IMO) of Prometheus. [i]Everything is somewhat wrong.[/i] Theseus, you brought up 1965 and that's quite an accurate appraisal, Prometheus is much in the spirit of those early B films, and every bizarre little detail they could weave in, they did. I don't know that Charlie's saying "Mankind" is part of that but its possible, if not probable. It seems to me fallibility and vulnerability and the universality of same are significant threads in the story.

Svanya, I agree with you as well. I think there was greater depth ( or scripted lack of depth) to the main characters, than was credited by many. its just that they weren't all too likable. This for me added to the tension, I knew all about the story before I saw it but these details still rendered it a most unexpected experience.

Yet the first cybernetic conscious humanoid computer robot is a white guy programmed with personality obsession of Sir Lawrence and not Pinocchio!!! NO wonder Weylands daughter had issues...Nor who Wasn't drunk or stoned at some point in the movie. And all human BEINGS were Darwinists too! But now after Prometheus we are all Promethians :) Except these guys: [url=http://youtu.be/-x1YuvUQFJ0]Raelianists[/url]

I think with Prometheus it is useful to look at the context and character of the person. Holloway is just a 70's throw back with really bad people skills and very little respect for those around him. He's just one big ego trying to prove a point. I have one very simple point to make. If someone is a sexist, they will find sexism. If someone is a racist they will find racism. The list goes on. In the mind of a child social stereotypes do not exist, it is only what we as adults impose on the minds of those who do not have labels that creates problems and social separation. There is nothing wrong with being mindful of what may be possibly offensive to some. I like to take a common sense approach and whilst being aware of possible insults ( which does happen) realise that centuries of of social movement and belief does not negate the failings of human nature. Sexism, bigotry, racism, have been here and will still be here for a long to come. The reaction to an insult tells you more about a person that the person carrying out the insult. I think this is the true measure of the civilized. so to test this point I will quote the great Oliver Reed ' Have many women does it take to change a light bulb?' 'Let her cook in the dark.' Only joking. I think social ignorance in the future could develop out of a lack of understanding of technology. [url=http://youtu.be/qi_31b0DHHg]Your text to link here...[/url]

@Theseus Good pick up. I missed that one. I did pick up on Holloway's expression "primitive ancient civilizations". Academics just don't use the word primitive in that context anymore. In fact, if you google primitive and civilization you will find results will not show very much in academic sources later than the 19th Century. Layman might use the term occasionally but archeologists wouldn't. I also agree with Major Noob that some of the language dates closer to our time than 2091. For example, tailpipe (you'd think carbon monoxide spewing tailpipes would be gone by 2091); Stephen Stils; Holloway calling Shaw "babe" at the beginning of the movie. All these things are clues. @Svanya - Ridley's mother's name was Elizabeth.

i cant imagine a world where there isnt any sexism, racism, or anything else because peoeple will always have there opinions even if they are extreme. the fututre would only take discrimination to another level if you ask me. I see your examples of this in prometheus as nothing more than ignorance. except the charlie is with david he seems to have some sort of personal problem with him

@Ruhaniya thanyou so muck for the link to the red letter media guys on youtube so funny i dont feel antagonised by the word mankind at all there are and doubtless will continue to be greater issues, i have only ever experienced mild sexism in my life so far and those little incidents were helpful reminders to stay assertive, of course i live in a part of the world that is fairly 'modern' sure there is plenty of domestic violence behind closed doors but generally celtic women are kinda agressive the roman Ammianus Marcellinus described how difficult it would be for a band of foreigners to deal with a Celt if he called in the help of his wife. For she was stronger than he was and could rain blows and kicks upon the assailants equal in force to the shots of a catapult. hahaha of course these days youll more likely see them raining blows on the cops or bouncers outside a club in defense of their drunken partners.

@javablue i call people babe, cupcake, etc of course only if i'm familiar with them and holloway and shaw were partners it doesnt seem sexist to me. Now if some random guy called me doll or princess or babe thatd be different! but they were a couple! gadz you should hear what my sisters fiancee calls her yeuch creeps

Yes, I agree with what you're saying. I'm not really looking at it from a sexist point of view but as language that doesn't quite fit and two doctors calling each other baby in public doesn't really fit. Other language use is a bit strange - for example, what is the system used for measurement - miles or kilometers? We hear both (as well as clicks). The other comment I found interesting was Janek's "try not to bugger each other."

Java, Janek has a back story of having flown sorties for the military and as we all know, soldiers tend to use 'rough' language from time to time. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. I agree with posters above, Ridley Scott has done much to advance the cause of strong women as protagonists in his movies. Haven't we heard that the protagonist of Blade Runner 2 is supposed to be a woman? And before that there is Warrant Officer Ellen Ripley or in the present movie, Dr Elisabeth Shaw. Give it some thought, those of you who would suggest the taint of sexism in Ridley Scott movies.

"try not to bugger each other." very british sort of humour lol i dont think or i hope that no-ones saying ridley scotts story promotes sexist attitudes nostromo i think they were posing the idea that holloway was meant to be considered subtly sexist and arrogant from his choice of words i personally think that is stretching it, holloway was ignorant towards david that is significant but otherwise he seemed okay to me!

also cant wait to see who gets cast as female protagonist in B2 and whether thy will be replicant or human? also maybe another ethnicity than european would be interesting!

[i]"try not to bugger each other." very british sort of humour lol[/i] Yes, I'm familiar with the bugger - bugger me, bugger off, etc - but I don't hear it used in its literal sense much nowadays. @nostro - yes, I understand that. But bugger is not really an American expression is it? Just out of curiosity. Janek also uses the expression "clicks" which is an American word for kilometer coming out of the Vietnam War, I think. I happen to think the way a character expresses himself tells us more about him/her. There's no mention of a military background in the movie but words like click point to that possibility. I don't think Ridley is at all sexist but it doesn't mean he can't have sexist characters in his movies.

Oh sorry java, I was referring to the deleted scene with Janek and Vickers after she incinerates Holloway and Janek appears at her door with rum and a story out of his past. It came with the DVD or blue ray edition.

hehe just reminded of some funny uses of 'bugger' "bugger-lugs" (lugs = ears) as a mildly cheeky term of endearment as an exclamation on say stubbing ones toe my dad oft exclaims "oh buggery-fuck!" or alternately "buggery-bollocks" :P hahaha

Bugger lugs I know. Don't use the other terms tho. Bollocks is very Brit.

nostro - I try not to take much notice of all those extras - more of a hindrance than a help, especially as Ridley has a sequel to protect. First time in my life I've ever seen deleted scenes used to explain a movie. There's lots of clues in the subtext and the various movies etc Prometheus alludes to.

This is one movie where all the deleted scenes provided extra material that helps you figure out the original movie. I know its an absurd way to make a movie but thats the movie we are stuck with. I am very glad that I did watch them or else I would still be wondering things and trying to figure out things that were made clear in the deleted scenes and alternative endings. It also gave me insight into the editing process and in some cases I could see RS's selection process.

i wouldnt say they were essential to my understanding of the movie they reinforced some ideas and although it was great to hear the engineer speak the final cut made the head ripping more sudden and more of a shock whereas the dialogue lets you see his anger build and so lessens the effect, i wouldve kept the axe fight with shaw though i dont think it diminishes him at all after all she hits him in the side with an axe and he still chases after her to presumably break her kneck

caenor, Yes after seeing those scenes I also have certain ones that I would have liked included like the Janek Vickers rum scene but like I said, while I am glad I saw those deleted scenes, at the end of the day I understand why in most cases Ridley Scott chose that edited cut. And for me it greatly helped my understanding of the film. But then so did the commentaries, the scripts, the Furious Gods documentary, so it wasn't JUST the deleted and alternate scenes that helped. That qualifies my earlier post:)

Excuse me, Theses, but why on earth shouldn't Stephen Stills still be talked about that far into the future? There are classical composers of far less substance, who operated further into the past, (than Prometheus is set into into the future), of whom we still talk about today. How do you know Crosby, Stills & Nash don't reform in the near future and become a world wide phenomenon? Or for that matter, Buffalo Springfield? And, on a more general note, isn't Holloway supposed to be disliked in the film? He's supposed to be annoying, and politically incorrect, right?

i find it kind of amusing when politically-correct types have a pop at words like mankind. Mankind refers to everyone, not just the male of the species. Check out the etymology of the word "woman" if this kind of thing bugs you. Clue: woman means "wife man".

oh interesting i had assumed it was a combo of womb and man like a man but with a womb lol silly but there you go... haha

@ nostro I'm afraid that if deleted scenes are needed to explain the film than by any standards of film-making set over the last 100 years, Prometheus is a failure. Every element in the movie is important and must all come together to give the film unity. I'm kind of amazed by the number of people who think a particular shot, frame, dialogue, etc is not important. I suppose some allowances can be made for Prometheus given it will have a sequel. And maybe times have changed - perhaps in the future there will be an Oscar for deleted scenes. My story with Prometheus is that I decided one day in October to watch a DVD so I did a quick google on best movies 2012 and found Prometheus, which I'd never heard of before that moment (I'd been hibernating in another dimension on the WWW). I have to say I had several WTF moments during the movie. For example, when Shaw mentions pyramids, my reaction was, "Pyramids? What's she talking about? What pyramids" because there are no pyramids in the movie. Imagine my amazement when I come on sites like this and everyone is referring to the domes as pyramids (and some become very defensive when questioned about that). However, while I don't think Prometheus will ever stand alongside Alien or BR, fans and others will be scouring over the film for a long time looking into Ridley's very rich subtext, his mise en scene, allusions and intertexuality, etc, where the real story is taking place. Now you're a scientist, Nostro so perhaps you'll understand this. Just about everything scientific or technical in the movie is a mistake or can be called into question. Since I have faith in Ridley (and I know that professional writers have a very high degree of general knowledge backed with good research skills and it was written that the movie had scientific advisers) I decided that the mistakes were too many to be mistakes - they were put into the movie on purpose. So that should be the starting point to understanding the movie. So I've been forming alternative theories about Prometheus.

I find your overbearing faux-feminist political correctness far more offensive than anything in this film. I would stick to Teletubbies if you want to see a film like you describe.

@javablue: [i]"Just about everything scientific or technical in the movie is a mistake or can be called into question."[/i] I've read some pretty loopy statements in my time, but this just about takes the biscuit. Utter hogwash. Whilst it is fascinating to read again of your your ongoing obsession with use of the word 'pyramid', need I remind you that there is no word currently in existence that accurately defines the structure that they found, and 'pyramid' is a perfectly reasonable choice given the strong similarities with the function of the Egyptian Pyramids.

Are you for real? A pyramid has a square base (sometimes triangular) with four triangular sides that come to a point at the top. Domes are spherical as is the structure in the film (in which it is also called a dome). Function has nothing to do with shape - besides the pyramids in Egypt were burial sites for pharaohs. No dead pharaohs in Prometheus as far as I'm aware. Do yourself a favour - ask some of your friends. As for my loopy statements, we'll just have to go over them sometimes. Let's start with one I've already mention - the missing Hittite civilization: During Holloway's spiel on archeological sites (one he has probably given may times) he names the pictograms and the civilizations where they were produced: “That’s Egyptian, Mayan, Sumerian, Babylonian, that’s Hawaiian at the end there, then Mesopotamian.” So where is the Hittite civilization? [b]The Hittite pictogram is clearly shown second from the end, just before Hawaii[/b] but Holloway instead refers to it as the Mesopotamian [civilization]. First, there is no Mesopotamian pictogram shown in his presentation (except where it is shown as the location for the Babylonian civilization). Mesopotamia is a region mostly in what is now Iraq, the Hittite civilization was located in what is now Turkey. Secondly, Mesopotamia is a not a civilization, it’s a region – the land between two rivers. We learn that in primary or junior high school. Yes, you can talk in the plural sense about Mesopotamian civilizations because a number of civilizations rose and fell in that area over 1000s of years and Charlie mentions two of them – Sumer and Babylonia. But you can’t talk about [b]the[/b] Mesopotamian civilization. This is a very basic error for a schoolboy, much less an archeologist. Let's stop there. Is that a mistake?

Yes, I am for real. Can you not get it into your head that words are appropriated for new uses all the time? It happens now, and it will happen in the future, whether you like it or not. If you are unable to conceive that the word 'pyramid' can only [i]ever[/i] be used to define a very specific shape, I have to say that you have a very limited imagination. Is a dyke a wall or a tough lesbian? In your world, the lesbian of that description does not exist. I'm not going to banter with you about Hittites etc. because that's [i]history[/i], not science. If you're going to argue that everything scientific in the movie is a mistake, at least give some examples of science. Are you generally prone to over-exaggeration, or is it just on this forum?

So you're saying that the Prometheus designers have come up with an entirely new shape which, while spherical without a hint of anything triangular, should be included under the definition of pyramid? Do you understand the words bat, shit and thick? That some characters call the structure a pyramid is a clue. We are supposed to ask why they are calling it a pyramid. Holloway is speaking of archeology which is a science. I have shown he doesn't appear to understand basic archeology which raises questions about him. But, anyhow, I knew you wouldn't answer my question - I was just wondering what elaborate dodge you'd come up with. So let's agree that you believe Prometheus is just some new age romp in outer space and I think there is much more to the movie, which we are meant to uncover. I thought that was one of the objectives of this forum.