Comments (Page 484)
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You can tell that Scott was influenced by Stanley Kubrick’s 2001: A Space Odyssey. There is a higher power intervening in evolution in the form of a black monolith (When the apes learn how to use tools, for example). We also have the A.I. problem where the supercomputer Hal starts to develop emotions and, controlling the ship, becomes a danger to the crew.
I hope you will finish the script. It would be very interesting to read.
If the xenomorph was not cooked the AVP would have been a success.
The only 2 films where the xenomorph was still full of life were Alien and Alien3. In Covenant it was just David's pet. In the rest of the movies it was just a bug. And of course there was the puppet in Disneyland.
The xenomorph can't be in the center of any film any longer. The Chinese new it already when they censored the xenomorph scenes and this did not affect too much the box office.
The xenomorph has only its origin to be explained briefly, without any eggs, facehuggers and chestburters. We need to be shown that David was only re-created it from some blueprints he found on the engineers' world. David's xenomorph was not the perfect organism, its accelerated growth rate seemed to have a negative impact on its intelligence and learning ability. David's xenomorph would expose itself in full light, open spaces, running engines, would knock his head against anything that comes in front of it, it's very different from the alien we knew. So either David will ameliorate it or admit it is his own weak version of what the engineers created.
I DON'T AGREE WITH THE EDITORIAL, BUT WITH RIDLEY SCOTT: THE BEAST IS COOKED!
Kane from NSW, Australia. I work as a geochemist, so terraforming is my game ;-)
Been obsessed with Sci-fi horrors since Alien 3 & Predator scared the pants off me.
BigDave although now Australian, my surname is one of the oldest surviving surnames originating not far from the Black Country in and around Lancashire, more specifically Strangeways....Rum-dealers that came to Australia on the first fleet XD
There's is only about a dozen of us left. 3 adults males of my generation....and we all have girls.
prior to AC a large percentage of members got the switch theory bang on. I understand it, can accept it but the way in which it was executed on film? very poor. it signifies everything that people are complaining about in the 2 movies so far. doesn't make any realistic sense. its sci-fi n I get things don't have to always make perfect sense but saying that, the viewer still has to buy into what their seeing. it just wasn't done well enough for me. people on here are still contemplating if it is indeed Walter and that's even after RS has confirmed its David which only goes to support the opinion it was poorly done. one argument is that David simply didn't have time to fight Walter, beat him, change clothes, cut his arm off, fix his voice and still catch up to the survivors before they reach the ship for rescue. he has a realistic 10 mins. RS says he cheated. ok I can accept that but imo that's just lazy.
for me, it should be Walter AND David. I think it would be more interesting if in fact David has managed to convince Walter to join him and that both personalities reside within Walters body.
but shouldn't Daniels have twigged earlier when she sees 'Walter' stapling his cheek? he can self heal and im guessing she would have been aware of this yet she even helps him lol
Interesting short movie!
Really interesting!
Prometheus is NOT an alien prequel, that's why it doesn't feel like one. it wasn't meant to feel like one as RS had stated he was going in a different direction.
thought they were ok, nothing spectacular but in truth no one was spectacular in AC
@ BigDave,
"Colonial Marines was ahead of its time"
Are you insane? Have you played the game? Aliens: Colonial Marines is one of the worst video games ever made, in virtually every respect. In terms of marketing, the major screw up of Gearbox Software promoting the game using source code different to that of the release version is infamous. It was revealed that Gearbox removed developers from working on the game to instead work on their latest in-house title. Technologically the developers re-coded the source engine, making it less effective with lower resolution textures, an over-dependence on Dynamic Lighting (which required too much of the CPU and GPU) and a single player NPC AI that was so ineffective we saw Aliens completely ignore the player, run endlessly into empty corners and the NPC marines constantly abandoning the player, and somehow completing objectives by themselves. As for the multiplayer it unimaginatively imitated ideas better executed in other games across a myriad of bland levels with limited and uninspired personalization options.
Narratively the game was even worse. It claimed that the remains of Hicks seen in Alien 3 were not actually Hicks, that the Bishop that appeared at the end of Alien 3 was a synthetic pretending to be a human called Michael Bishop, that the nuclear radiation from the destruction of Hadley's Hopes Atmosphere Processor had caused the aliens to mutate, that there was another Queen that Ripley and co. had completely missed in Aliens. Of course, the biggest narrative anomaly actually raises the question of how much of Prometheus the developer was privy to - I am of course talking about the bizarre appearance of Fifield's 'pups' on board the derelict. Up to this point we had only seen them in marketing for Prometheus, with many fans incorrectly speculating that they were Engineer technology.
BigDave It seems a lot of old pubs are there. Is it this one?
Also, these metal veterans hail from there (enviable bragging rights):
Judas Priest
Well i am Dave... like you would not guess...
Massive Sci-Fan in General... and Horror among many other Genres.
From a Place at the Heart of England Called the Black-country, and a Town that is one of the oldest towns in England, but could be a slight exaggeration but dates back nearly 1500 years, even mentioned in the Doomsday Book, even have 650 year old Pub near by... i think those who are not from the UK and those who do not have English as there first Language would struggle to understand the Black Country Original Dialect, because its one of the few places that use the oldest origins of what became English and well it would be very confusing to folk who are not from these parts... Yorkshire also has dialect that is similar.
For Fun you could give me a Sentence, a Quote, a Joke or anything and i can translate it to "ye olde black country for yow"
*Yow not being a Typo... but just a Ancient way of saying You ;)
I can understand the frustration of Fans who want to see the Xenomorph... but we need to look at it from FOX's POV and that will be $$$$$£££££ Sadly for Blade Runner i think chances of a 3rd movie are low.
The SAVING Grace of Blade Runner and Alien could Ultimately be Video Games, if done right a Video Game can expand on the Universe giving Fans their FIX while throwing you into the Story, just look how well a ALIEN Isolation had done, compared to ALIENS Colonial Marines.
Colonial Marines could have been Epic, if done better, Sadly for that game it was to ahead of its Time, in that it covered really nothing New that Aliens had not covered, it was basically Aliens the movie done in a Game with a few changes.... there was nothing New...
But then Isolation had nothing New really either, it was again about a Lone Xenomorph on a Ship, well Space Station this time...
Colonial Marines was ahead of its time, in regards to source material, it basically just used the Derelict in Alien and the Alien Eggs, Face Huggers, Xenomorph and Queen.. NOW a Alien Colonial Marines game set after we had Alien Covenant and Prometheus (remember CM was in production as Prometheus was) then there is now a wealth of expanded material to explore, where Engineer Technology and Engineers could be explored, the Black Goo Pathogen and its many forms of Xenomorph it can create, even Neomorph like Spores would be something a Well done video game could work wonders with.
So maybe the Xenomorph can be enjoyed by the fans in future regarding the Video Game Market, i feel Blade Runner Universe done in a Game if done well could also do very well.
I feel its a shame FOX does not have much confidence in its Franchises, but then alas, they are a B-Movie that Evolved, and its a limited Franchise as far as potential interest.
Blade Runner 2049 is not making much cash, because mainly only the Franchise Fanbase is going to see it, and its not attracting those people who have no interest in Blade Runner, or who never found the movie interesting or those who have never heard or watched Blade Runner.. I feel the Alien Franchise has a somewhat similar Fanbase.... i think the Alien Fanbase is larger, but Movies regarding the Xenomorph especially post Alien 3 have Tarnished the Franchise Somewhat.. pretty much like the Terminator Franchise suffered after its 3rd Movie.
I feel they need to cover the dots from Alien Covenant to Alien, they need to branch off to explore the Engineers and other related themes, and they need to give us a Alien 5, a Xenomorph based flick that is either set after Alien R, or Parallel to the events prior to Alien, or post Alien but prior to Alien R
Sadly i cant see FOX investing the money to do all 3 Projects, without the risk of not making any good return, right now we are at a Stage of getting our Answers for Alien, which means between AC and Alien we have a set of Movies that will answer those Questions maybe even leading to the events of Alien, which no doubt means XENOMORPHS have to make some kind of appearance.
The Problem here is introducing the Xenomorph again too much and not done right prior to the connecting movie to ALIEN means the Beast gets Cooked, overcooked maybe and would render a ALIEN 5 a big No No due to risks of a potential Financial Flop.
On the Flip-side, if they dont cover the Xenomorph in the next movies and its about Rogue AI and Engineers and this puts Fans who want to see Xenomorphs Off, then if these movies Flop because some Fans dont get the Xeno Fix... Ultimately FOX would have to consider would a ALIEN 5 be a good investment? Again i think this would depend on Outcry from the Fanboys, while also having the movies linking to Alien making Strong Returns.
So FOX are in a very sticky situation...
I have a few ideas how they can get out of this... i have a broad Synopsis for how i would tackle a AC sequel, which i kind of feel could be similar to the route they are taking... i just dont know if its worth me working on fleshing it out, considering that apparently the ideas and plot has already been worked out and a Sequel Draft is well in the Works.
BigDave always knows what's up :)
I can see the Frustration Thoughts_Dreams but i think we need to remember where RS was going with the Prequels.
ALIEN: introduced us to this Fascinating yet Horrific Alien Organism who Stalked the Crew of the Nostromo of no Apparent Reason other than being a Space Jason Voorhees however the DC version showed us it was actually going about its business to Procreate its Species.
ALIENS: Introduced us to a Queen as a route to Procreation, to answer the Question of where could those Eggs had came from? Camerons Answers... hinted that it likely was a Queen, We saw the Xenomorph now portrayed as some kind of Hive Mentality Organism thats main objective is Procreate and Protect the Queen.
ALIEN 3: Attempted to bring us back to a more Thriller, Horror Haunted Maze kind of Flick on a bigger scale, but showing us the Organism still stealthy picked its victims off ONE-BY-ONE like in Alien, and also tried to portray the Organism as being more resilient to death than the Head Exploding Xenomorphs of Aliens.
ALIEN RESURRECTION: is where the Ball Was dropped, while introducing a few good ideas, it also covered some maybe Lazy ideas, that on the other hand could be seen as interesting, but this kind of damaged the reputation of the Xenomorph, the Xenomorphs became pretty much Fodder Again and the New-Born became a bit of a Comical conclusion to some neat Hybrid ideas.
FOX felt the Beast had been a bit cooked at this point, they appeared to not be interested in a Alien 5 set on Earth with Xenomorphs running riot.... and in time they felt a Cross-Over Aliens vs Predator would be a investment to make $$$$$$££££££ by exploiting both Franchises, and doing something DIFFERENT and why not because the Comic Books had success and the Video Games... And thus we ended up with the AVP Movies which further cooked the Beast, but a majority of its failings was the Time-Line Setting, when they should have covered the Time-line of the Comics and Video Games i.e the years 2150-2250 Ball Park.
So at this point no body ever answered these Questions...
WHO was the Space Jockey (his Race, Agenda Purpose)
WHAT was he doing with the Cargo, Where was he going?
HOW was the Xenomorph Created or Discovered and WHEN?
They eventually chose to explore this but not in a way that would have Xenomorphs, running around, or introducing Queens, showing Queens laying Eggs and them being taken on board the Space Jockey Ships. Never mind a Literal Shoe-horned Space Jockey Event.
The Aliens, Alien R and AVP movies gave us Queens, and plenty of Xenomorphs, it appears FOX felt that repeating these on screen just to explain where they came from, and how they ended up on the Derelict was not necessary.
These movies with the Pursuit of the Xenomorph by the Companies, showed us the Xenomorph was a Evasive Parasitical Species, Ridley Scott had prior to Prometheus and after spoke how the Derelict was a Bomber and that the Xenomorph was a Bio-Weapon Cargo.
So we know the Xenomorph was a Bio-Weapon, the BIG THING we did not know was WHY, for WHAT purpose and WHO created it (was it created or Engineered) and if so WHY and for who was the INTENDED recipient
The basis for this was that it was some kind of Engineered Bio-Weapon the Space Jockey Race had been experimenting with, with the intention of unleashing it on Mankind... WHY? because the Curve-ball was that these Space Jockeys were a Ancient Race who created us, or had taken part in how we was created/evolved and then they realized we ended up being a Race who would not be Sub-servant a race who would not stick to the way and expectations/plans and purpose for what we was created for.
So these Engineers had concocted a plan to wipe us out, maybe to start again, and maybe because they realized the potential future threat we would pose if we was left to continue the path we was taking.
So this is the Themes RS wishes to explore, the whole WHY as far as not what the Xenomorph was, is or could be, but in part HOW it came to be, but more so WHY anyone would create such a Bio-Weapon.
The Curve-ball for Alien Covenant was that while the Hubris for the Engineers was creating Mankind and then failing to deal with us, with them failing to contain their Bio-Weapon.. which allowed Mankind to Evolve and Travel the Stars and reach their Dreaded Outpost where they Plotted to Destroy us from... and further more the Engineers Creations, own Sub-Creation (David) proved to be the undoing of many of the Engineers.
And now in our Hubris, our own Creation has decided to Evolve the Engineers Weapon to Created the Dreaded Xenomorph that he intends to use to destroy all Humanoid Life, or certainly use it as a Weapon so he can cast his own Dominion over Mankind and have us Worship him....
So basically the Xenomorph really is just a Evolution of a Bio-Weapon created by the Engineers, and there is more to the Engineers than just this Bio-Weapon, the Bio-Weapon thus to them is like Mankind inventing and obtaining Gunpowder, and the Xenomorph just the latest extension of evolution of Gunpowder Fire Arms.
They did fine for the script etc... they were given.
A lot comes down to the Evolution of the Star Beast, which is what the Original idea was, which was that a Human Group of Space Explorers discover a SOS Beacon on a Alien World, they arrive to explore this signal, and they discover a Alien Races Derelict Space Craft with the Giant Skeletal Remains of the Crew. This Giant Alien Race had landed on this world and had investigated a Pyramid Complex that contained Alien Spores/Eggs that contained the Star-Beast Alien Organism, they attempted to take this Organism to their ship but they got infected and set off a Warning to Warn others to STAY AWAY
The Organism (Starbeast) had a Life Cycle of... Spore/Egg, Face Hugger, Chest Burster and Adult and then it Morphed Hosts into New Eggs/Spores to continue its Life-Cycle... it was indicated this Alien Organism would mature past a Hostile Juvenile Stage to eventually become Civilized having its own Culture and able to construct a Civilization.
The Giant Skeletal beings who had sent the SOS were merely another Space Traveling Race who happened to stumble upon the Ancient Alien Starbeast long gone Civilizations Eggs/Spores.
This was evolved into ALIEN were the Eggs/Spores are now part of the Alien Derelict ship, and the Giant Skeletal remains are now that of a Alien Race (Space Jockey) who had this Egg Cargo for some unknown Reason, yet Aesthetically the Space Jockey, its Ship and the Xenomorph are Genetically/Aesthetically related.
so a lot has changed/evolved... at the point of Aliens, and on wards no body ever touched upon the Mystery of the Space Jockey, the Derelict and Cargo. But RS had came to the conclusion it was a Bio-Weapon Cargo being carried by the Derelict Ship and the Space Jockey fell prey to his own Bio-Weapon.
The notion of the Space Jockey or Xenomorph relating back to anything like the Original idea in Star Beast was, is something that may never be explored.
The ALIEN Prequel was shaping up to being a bit different than Prometheus, i will post a link to ALIEN ENGINEERS which was a Earlier Draft that Evolved to PROMETHEUS. And also STARBEAST which was a earlier draft that evolved to ALIEN.
I cant seem to find a Star Beast at the Moment, maybe someone else can help, but i will attempt to find one ASP.
I think Prometheus is in part a very solid Alien Prequel, but flawed in many ways how it was portrayed, the basis and concept was Bold, but how it was Executed was flawed.
I will answer you points one by one, with what i feel is a relevant answer, where i will use the Bold to Present Actual Canon Facts, and Italic for my personal opinion/interpretations.
"nothing about that movie connected me to my alien franchise I loved so much"
On the contrary the clues are there... The Ships were Similar, so as to draw a connection, the Space Jockey Suits similar, (got the size wrong though) the clues where there to make a connection. Here are a few.
*Juggernaught/Derelict Connected Ships.
*Engineers Bio-Hazard/Space Suits connected to the Space Jockey.
*The Black-Goo Pathogen is connected to the Xenomorph, this however is not done quite as clear as it could have been done.
*Ultimately the Trilobite was to be shown as the Xenomorph DNA connection it was in essence a variation of a Face Hugger.
*The Location of LV-223 in Prometheus is very close to LV-426 in ALIEN
*The Juggernaught had Chest Busted Engineers in their Cryo-sleep pods
"They needed a better connection between them even if it would have been a small short ending scene showing us something similar but not yet evoled into the xenomorphs we know now"
Indeed this was the attempt, the Deacon was to be reminiscent to the Xenomorph, it was to allow us to see some connection but left it ambigious to how and what stage it was connected, does this Deacon evolve into the Xenomorph? Was these Deacons around before and did they Evolve from the Xenomorph? Does the Deacon evolve from the Xenomorph? Or do they share a common Ancestor.
It was all left too open.. Its a shame as i feel a little bit more clues would have worked well, as Prometheus was a movie that took a lot of hard work and study, which i have done so in great detail and my conclusion was drawn to the Hammerpedes being the Precursor to the Xenomorph and Reasons for the Space Jockey Incident i came to this conclusion a long time ago.. And after i had arrived at this, RS had even then Spoon Feed in a way WHAT the Derelict/Space Jockey event was and my interpretation was very close indeed.
But alas this has all changed with Alien Covenant.
"I have always wondered why they look how they do when entering humans since it matched what was first found in space but when a predator was infected it looked different"
The Xenomorph Face Hugger incubates a Embryo that takes on traits of its Host, so this accounts for the difference with the Pred-Alien, it however maintained a similar Bi-Pedal Stance because the Predator was a Bi-Pedal Humanoid.
"This would be a great opening to show us how they was designed with human DANA and using other alien kinds hold opportunity to create other various looking aliens"
As far as the Origins of its DNA etc, this is what Prometheus had tried to show, it tried to show different outcomes of the Pathogen, the big problem sadly was that the Earlier Concepts these Mutations had more Xenomorph connections. Where we could see a more clear link.
"I would think that an AI machine attempting to make his creation perfect would test the DNA with multiple species not just humans themselves"
As far as different outcomes indeed this is what David had been up to with all his experiments in his work-shop these however were not shots that the Camera Examined or spent much time on or explained deeply in Alien Covenant, much to the same way the Mural, Altar and Fresco's were never referenced or explained in Prometheus. They were just visual clues for us, for split seconds.
"Also how is a queen made?"
This is a pretty important Question, but one that maybe will not be answered, Alien there was never any Queen, we had the Xenomorph simply Mutate the Hosts into Eggs, which we can only assume would host Face Huggers. Maybe as Aliens kind of brought a Hive Insect aspect to the Xenomorph, maybe a Queen is Produced the same way that they are in some Insect Species, like Ants, Termites or Bees.
It simply has never been explained... my own Personnel Opinion is this. A Xenomorph Hive or Egg Hold releases a kind of Pheromones and when a Face Hugger is Gestating inside of a Organism and it is a certain distance from a Hive, it does not detect these Pheromones and so it incubates a Drone, which then is used to turn a Host into a Royal Egg Morph, the Host is mutated into a Larger Egg, that maybe shrinks down once it has utilized the hosts DNA, where it then Produces either a Royal Face Hugger or a actual Small Xenomorph Queen, Once a Queen has grown and starts to be able to lay Eggs, Pheromones are set off so that within a certain distance of this Queens Hive, other Face Huggers WILL-NOT Gestate a Drone but Warriors instead.
However no conclusion explanation for how a Queen would come about has been definitely explained in Movie Canon, maybe Alien Awakening could give clues to this?
Regarding the other aspects of the Hive, and different roles and types of Xenomorph, i think indeed we could see some different castes as we do with say Bees, Ants or Termites, but i would not be expecting the Xenomorph to be explored as a Organism that would go on to become Civilized and actually build/construct Ships and the like... They appear to not be as capable of this as Humans are, but they are very intelligent if not just relying on instincts.
i know some fans would love to see the Xenomorph explored like how the TYRANIDS are in the Games Workshop Warhammer 40K Universe, but i cant see this happening and besides the Tyranids are basically based off the Xenomorph anyway...
I think exploring something like this would be interesting but it was done with Alien Covenant, only we did not get to see these things on screen too much.
Maybe Origae-6 could be a World with remnants of a long lost Humanoid Civilization, that has long gone, and by that i dont mean the kind of Remnants that the Covenant Crew arrived at, but something far more long lost. Like Many of the Ancient Sites on Earth.
The Human Colonists would be in Shock and Awe to discover ancient ruins of a once very ancient culture, with indeed stone sculptures and carvings from stone. I do however feel following the plot of AC that the Covenants Original Destination just happens to be a world previously inhabited by Engineers or Humans settled their by the Engineers would be too much of a Coincidence.
I think they did very well considering... and i think this may be the route they have to take in future, that is to introduce us to unknown or relatively not very well known Actors etc, with strong Characters to play.
Some very interesting and Valid Points raised...
In favor of a Alien 5 i think personally the route Blomkamp was to take would have been a mistake, indeed it could still be pulled off but it would have to be about passing the Torch onto Newt, the movie would also have to be set some 25 years after Aliens if it was being worked on NOW... if a Alien 5 Project was Resurrected in 2-3 years then they have to take this into account when portraying the Age of Ripley and what year it would be set in. Because while Miss Weaver may look good for her near 70 years, they would still have trouble trying to portray to the Fans a Ripley aged more than 10 years what Miss Weaver is at the time of shooting and so looking at Blomkamps Concept Work this Ripley does not look the wrong side of 50 never mind in her 60's and so having a Miss Weaver pulling off a 45 year old Ripley would have been a push.
Also the Alien 5 concept by Blomkamp would have just given us the same thing we have seen over and over for the most part, and would also mean we have to view Alien 3 and Alien R in a different Light...
Why i think while Blomkamps Ideas had some Merit, i feel that some of these ideas could well be used in a Alien 5 but not as far as bringing back Ripley and not as far as bringing back the Traditional Aliens Queen.
Amy and Carmen for sure. That whole crazy med lab/ship's destruction scene was done so well, and they made me care for them as human beings, and I felt their demise was too soon and very unfair. That damn creature! ))
It's ageist to suggest that Sigourney Weaver cannot be an action star at her age. Ellen Ripley is, in my opinion, the greatest fictional character ever created. And Sigourney is, at minimum, 50% responsible for that. Do I want more Ripley? Yes. Do I think Sigourney can still kick ass? Yes. Do I think Neill Blomkamp would make a fantastic ALIEN sequel? YES! He's a great filmmaker. He's gone on record that ALIENS is his favorite movie of all time. He's so desperate to make his ALIEN movie that he already got Sigourney to star in this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjQ2t_yNHQs (Not to mention CHAPPIE!) I honestly don't understand why someone wouldn't want a new ALIEN sequel! RESURRECTION was horribly open-ended.
Amy Seimetz and Carmen Ejogo definitely! Both showed the emotional strain of the characters well.
Benjamin Rigby deserves a big shout-out for his chilling deterioration and backburster acting. One of the best scenes in the film!
Beside him none of the security team really stood out. As much I appreciate Lope (Bichir) and Rosenthal's (Haubrich) from the Origins novel, their characters were almost hollow shadows in the film. Nothing against the actors they had little to work with, but I can barely recall what Hallett, Cole & Ankor look like.
Smollett & Hernandez were ok, but nothing remarkable as Ricks & Upworth IMO
Devin from NY. Huge Alien fan. Just joined because I love reading BigDave's comments. I find this website to be more interesting than the films themselves.
I agree. The drone is no Einstein. I believe in the books the only variation that has human or above intelligence was the Queen who I think had an IQ of 150.
@ Michelle,
From what I understand you are saying that the inferred traits the Alien had in the first movie would be gratuitously exploited if explored in a modern re-invigorating of the creature, as I suggested in the editorial. This does not have to be the case as an antagonist can be portrayed to be cruel without glorifying cruelty. The perfect example is the "call to John" scene in Terminator 2: Judgment Day, whereby the T-1000 tortures Sarah Connor in an attempt to have her lure John to it.
Sadly as I glossed over in the editorial, I feel that the traits in question never existed in the 1979 movie, the traits that St. Anger summed it up perfectly...
"But Alien is not that, once you separate these elements from the character you stay with its psychological traits, he is not only a murderer, he is a psychopath, he lacks empathy, emotions or susceptibility, his levels of intelligence and rage are immensely high, he is calculating, his mental processes are totally ruined, he is a deranged killer who does not attack directly but studies his victims in an insane way, he is a sexual depraved, only his high violent behavior satisfies his mental need to dominate his victims, rape, murder, dismember them and get drunk with pleasure while doing it. To this, we add what already know:"
I, like we all, have seen Alien numerous times and all I saw was an overgrown insect born in a typical parasitic fashion (at the expense of its host) use the vent ducts of the Nostromo to incapacitate Brett and Dallas for propagation before killing Parker and Lambert to protect its fledgling offspring. This is not only atypical animalistic behavior, it shows NONE of the alleged traits rose-tinted spectacled fans of Alien imbue upon the creature. This same behavior has been recycled in all subsequent movies, with only Aliens added super-organism intelligence to the mix, with the Aliens bypassing the marines defenses, shutting off power and the Queen operating an elevator.
Such intelligence used with non-gratuitous portrayals of the traits fans claim the original creature had, but didn't, could see the Alien uncooked.
Ha ha ha! I can't stop laughing at the Gordon Ramsay picture. It is effing hysterical!
I can sort of imagine him with his voice yelling that.
David is like "Pff, what ever you say man."
Thinking about his next step in the destruction of humanity, and all that because of Gordon Ramsey. :D
I, such as dk, smelt the switch from the moment they cut away from the fight. When I realized we wouldn't see the ending of it, it was too obvious. That doesn't make it any less horrifying though! Since they kept it going for the last, what, 10-15 minutes I almost started to doubt it. Plus, Fassbender and Waterston combined for an absolute chilling reveal. I lvoed it!
I think that they do do some more with the Xeno and Xeno related monsters but I am tired of the angle of AI because they have put it at the center of the movie and they have sacrificed good human characters in favor of that.
Prometheus was alright as far as the environment goes and I also liked the new monsters. The Engineers were given too little background information to be as good as the possibly could have been but I prefer that to a movie being taken over by a AI because at least the Engineers looked closer to humans. Unfortunately they have too many bad characters except for Janek and David to make a good movie out of it. Maybe it could have been better if Fox wouldn't have interfered with it.
At least they did something right in AC, that was kill kill Shaw. Unfortunately they thought that all that was needed was to give us the Xeno, that was far away from what it was about.
Unfortunately the Xeno was in it for too much of a short time just to be killed by a crane. That death was dumb, it just felt that they wanted to get rid of it. It was like a sort of disrespect to those that wanted to see the monster again. I don't think that just having a Xeno is enough to make a better movie but they could have dealt with it a lot better in the movie.
Give us better characters and less slow scenes, there were too many slow scenes in AC. It doesn't have to be action all the time but there got to be a better mix. Pacing doesn't mean too much if the characters are not written well-written.
Having the next movie as something that is focusing on AI is boring. I don't care if it will be about what happens when a AI gets too much freedom or what ever. As long as there is a too slow pace and human characters that are badly done then it will be a boring movie.
Yes one of the things that is good about the Xeno is that it is sort of smart and less like a mindless bug.
"Sadly with Scott's grip on the franchise seeming to ever tighten while drifting away from the core concepts that made it so iconic it is highly unlikely that a true 'Alien' movie will be developed any time in the near future."
This is a part of why Alien Covenant turned out to be unsatisfying.
Michelle J:
"So I get that your trying to explain what Ridley was trying to do and explain it thematically to T&D but the more central point of Thoughts&Dreams is the character this all hinges on David is not relatable enough nor are the protagonists. In Prometheus David was fascinating we were discovering because he has to hold the story together in Covenant he is simply a series of manoeuvres which lead to only one conclusion he is a made robot."
Exactly this, it sums it up in a short and understandable way I think. Failed human characters as far as the writing is concerned and a robot with fascist tendencies don't make a good movie. When I read this about a robot with fascist tendencies it sounds really horrible but that is how he is in the movie which is a failure as far as character writing goes.
I see that but I disagree and I still don't think that a movie tied to the Alien universe should be about it. Leave that to other movies that probably could do so in a more interesting way.
A hubris of creation and the Xeno sure but I still think that it was wrong to let David be the creator of it since he is now a mad android with possible Hitler-esque dreams (remember his lines about mankind as a dying specie). Sure the Engineers are not nice either but I would rather have the Xenos tied to them and not David which makes more sense when you think about the crashed ship and its pilot in Alien. I would rather have the Engineers as those that made mankind and we misbehave so they send the Xeno one us, it would make more sense when explaining the dead pilot in the chair and also that would be more interesting than putting in all this AI stuff.
"But indeed a lot of these kinds of Plot are something that is covered in Blade Runner and so the Question should be why explore these in the Franchise, when it should be about the Xenomorph."
Not only about the Xeno but about well-written human characters that are finding themselves in situations that they are badly equipped for handling. To me this is the central theme in the Alien movies and those that are related to it. It is not about the Xeno per se, it is there to make the movie about the human experience work.
"The Reason RS went for the Xenomorph being a creation of David is to touch upon the Hubris of Creation, and so in Hindsight the Engineers made TWO massive Errors, 1) To Create us, 2) To Create something so Horrific in order to Destroy us."
That was a mistake because it was still too much about the AI part and to make David the supposed creator of the Xeno just made it worse because there were so many other ways to do that, ideas that I think would be more interesting. I hope that they still make it so he made a version of the original one, let the Engineers be the original creators but I am afraid that Scott will stick with the very unsatisfying version that David created the original. Hopefully they will change it now since people reacted to Alien Covenant the way they did, it would be nice if they would remove the most stupid developments that AC gave us.
"… the Synthetic David, who in a great Hubris actually can Control the Engineers Bio-Weapon and Evolve it and end up using it against the Engineers and then intending to use a Creation created from it to use against all Mankind and Humanoids. Ridley Scott felt this was the Big theme to explore."
It still gives too much importance to the AI, I don't like that. Scott might think that it is something interesting but I don't. At least one can say that it was not well executed on screen. To me the AI angle is getting cooked, and that happens at a fast tempo.
I see that but I disagree and I still don't think that a movie tied to the Alien universe should be about it. Leave that to other movies that probably could do so in a more interesting way.
A hubris of creation and the Xeno sure but I still think that it was wrong to let David be the creator of it since he is now a mad android with possible Hitler-esque dreams (remember his lines about mankind as a dying specie). Sure the Engineers are not nice either but I would rather have the Xenos tied to them and not David which makes more sense when you think about the crashed ship and its pilot in Alien. I would rather have the Engineers as those that made mankind and we misbehave so they send the Xeno one us, it would make more sense when explaining the dead pilot in the chair and also that would be more interesting than putting in all this AI stuff.
"But indeed a lot of these kinds of Plot are something that is covered in Blade Runner and so the Question should be why explore these in the Franchise, when it should be about the Xenomorph."
Not only about the Xeno but about well-written human characters that are finding themselves in situations that they are badly equipped for handling. To me this is the central theme in the Alien movies and those that are related to it. It is not about the Xeno per se, it is there to make the movie about the human experience work.
"The Reason RS went for the Xenomorph being a creation of David is to touch upon the Hubris of Creation, and so in Hindsight the Engineers made TWO massive Errors, 1) To Create us, 2) To Create something so Horrific in order to Destroy us."
That was a mistake because it was still too much about the AI part and to make David the supposed creator of the Xeno just made it worse because there were so many other ways to do that, ideas that I think would be more interesting. I hope that they still make it so he made a version of the original one, let the Engineers be the original creators but I am afraid that Scott will stick with the very unsatisfying version that David created the original. Hopefully they will change it now since people reacted to Alien Covenant the way they did, it would be nice if they would remove the most stupid developments that AC gave us.
"… the Synthetic David, who in a great Hubris actually can Control the Engineers Bio-Weapon and Evolve it and end up using it against the Engineers and then intending to use a Creation created from it to use against all Mankind and Humanoids. Ridley Scott felt this was the Big theme to explore."
It still gives too much importance to the AI, I don't like that. Scott might think that it is something interesting but I don't. At least one can say that it was not well executed on screen. To me the AI angle is getting cooked, and that happens at a fast tempo.
Big Dave:
OK so we have Ash, Bishop, and Call if we are talking about the role of AI in the franchise. However there used to be a balance between the monsters, humans, and AI and usually they got a kind of good mix. Right now they do not only sacrifice good human characters but also the various monsters at least the Xenos so most of the focus is on AI and that gets boring quick.
You mention Ripley but we also have characters like Clemens, Parker, Lambert, Golic, Dallas, and Hicks for example. Even though they are not at the center of the stage they are important to the story because they severe their purpose with the screen time that they have because they are somewhat well written and a lot better than those in Prometheus and AC.
"The Story and Philopshy RS is trying to cover is not quite so much AI, but Creation, and what makes someone/something a GOD. The idea they was trying to cover with the Prequels are that Mankind was not the Product of Evolution by basic Life Forms Billions of years ago, and we are not created by some Magical GOD being."
Alright I can see that but never the less they spend too little time on interesting characters which in turn ruins the otherwise somewhat interesting idea of creation, self-awareness and what ever he is trying to tell us about. If they don't get the characters right or at least some of them then there is no reason for me to care about the themes how ever interesting those themes in themselves are.
As far as the theory of mind and AI is concerned that is a topic that I think is interesting but it isn't something that I am looking for when I watch an alien related movie. If that would be things that I would find interesting I would look for another movie of or maybe read a book. I am not interested in that as far as the Alien franchise is concerned.
"Its a Plot/Idea about when we create AI and a Synthetic Humanoids to the point they are virtually indistinguishable from a Human, and yet are Superior in Every way... The only thing that limits them is their Programing/AI where they are created to Serve..."
I see what you mean but when they focus too much on the AI side and less on the human side it becomes boring and it doesn't make me more interested in exploring the AI side of it, more like the opposite since I now tend to associate artificial intelligence with an underwhelming movie. Maybe I could read about it in a book but it doesn't encourage me to watch more movies about that topic.
"When a AI looks like a Human, has Human Emotions, Memories and Experiences and then views themselves as not just being a Machine... What is the difference then between a Human and Machine? Only that we have a SOUL..."
They are not biological beings. To me this an obvious part, maybe it isn't to others. Of course they can be made to look like humans but they are not and do not function in the same way because they are artificial. Now if they have feelings and so on bit are not biological then their dreams and so on are artificial. Maybe Scott in his ideas about afterlife or what ever have forgot about that simple fact.
"Or do we? Do we really pass on to higher pane of existence when we Die, do we have a Spirit, or when we Die are we just Dust.... if this is the case then what difference is AI to Human? I feel these are the Questions RS was trying to explore.. A Soul could be how kind of heart a person is, their Moral Compass a kind and empathetic person would be considered to have a GOOD SOUL"
OK, but I don't watch alien movies for that kind of thing. If they want to ask questions about that they could build the movie like a round-table discussion and market it like that. I am not looking for that in an alien movie. Maybe they could make an alien movie based on it but it seems it me that it is if not impossible then at least very difficult because in the first movie it was a lot like a slasher in space and to me it asked about the idea of being human and the human place in the universe in a lot more interesting way (and indirectly about AI).
To me a soul could be translated to psyche and it is always something that works on a higher mental level and that is something that is connected to humans as biological beings so the mental could work a s a organ but a mental organ. AI doesn't have that so they can't have a soul. My answer would probably be that if I would discuss something like that with someone.
"So what RS is trying to do is suggest when AI becomes so Advanced and Sentient, then all that separates them from a Human apart from being Superior to us, is that its considered Humans have a Spiritual Soul, a After Life... and RS with Prometheus and the plans they had.. seems to be asking the Question... do we really have a SOUL is there really a AFTER-LIFE because if not, then there is nothing we have that a Synthetic does not."
BigDave:
OK so we have Ash, Bishop, and Call if we are talking about the role of AI in the franchise. However there used to be a balance between the monsters, humans, and AI and usually they got a kind of good mix. Right now they do not only sacrifice good human characters but also the various monsters at least the Xenos so most of the focus is on AI and that gets boring quick.
You mention Ripley but we also have characters like Clemens, Parker, Lambert, Golic, Dallas, and Hicks for example. Even though they are not at the center of the stage they are important to the story because they severe their purpose with the screen time that they have because they are somewhat well written and a lot better than those in Prometheus and AC.
"The Story and Philopshy RS is trying to cover is not quite so much AI, but Creation, and what makes someone/something a GOD. The idea they was trying to cover with the Prequels are that Mankind was not the Product of Evolution by basic Life Forms Billions of years ago, and we are not created by some Magical GOD being."
Alright I can see that but never the less they spend too little time on interesting characters which in turn ruins the otherwise somewhat interesting idea of creation, self-awareness and what ever he is trying to tell us about. If they don't get the characters right or at least some of them then there is no reason for me to care about the themes how ever interesting those themes in themselves are.
As far as the theory of mind and AI is concerned that is a topic that I think is interesting but it isn't something that I am looking for when I watch an alien related movie. If that would be things that I would find interesting I would look for another movie of or maybe read a book. I am not interested in that as far as the Alien franchise is concerned.
"Its a Plot/Idea about when we create AI and a Synthetic Humanoids to the point they are virtually indistinguishable from a Human, and yet are Superior in Every way... The only thing that limits them is their Programing/AI where they are created to Serve..."
I see what you mean but when they focus too much on the AI side and less on the human side it becomes boring and it doesn't make me more interested in exploring the AI side of it, more like the opposite since I now tend to associate artificial intelligence with an underwhelming movie. Maybe I could read about it in a book but it doesn't encourage me to watch more movies about that topic.
"When a AI looks like a Human, has Human Emotions, Memories and Experiences and then views themselves as not just being a Machine... What is the difference then between a Human and Machine? Only that we have a SOUL..."
They are not biological beings. To me this an obvious part, maybe it isn't to others. Of course they can be made to look like humans but they are not and do not function in the same way because they are artificial. Now if they have feelings and so on bit are not biological then their dreams and so on are artificial. Maybe Scott in his ideas about afterlife or what ever have forgot about that simple fact.
"Or do we? Do we really pass on to higher pane of existence when we Die, do we have a Spirit, or when we Die are we just Dust.... if this is the case then what difference is AI to Human? I feel these are the Questions RS was trying to explore.. A Soul could be how kind of heart a person is, their Moral Compass a kind and empathetic person would be considered to have a GOOD SOUL"
OK, but I don't watch alien movies for that kind of thing. If they want to ask questions about that they could build the movie like a round-table discussion and market it like that. I am not looking for that in an alien movie. Maybe they could make an alien movie based on it but it seems it me that it is if not impossible then at least very difficult because in the first movie it was a lot like a slasher in space and to me it asked about the idea of being human and the human place in the universe in a lot more interesting way (and indirectly about AI).
To me a soul could be translated to psyche and it is always something that works on a higher mental level and that is something that is connected to humans as biological beings so the mental could work a s a organ but a mental organ. AI doesn't have that so they can't have a soul. My answer would probably be that if I would discuss something like that with someone.
"So what RS is trying to do is suggest when AI becomes so Advanced and Sentient, then all that separates them from a Human apart from being Superior to us, is that its considered Humans have a Spiritual Soul, a After Life... and RS with Prometheus and the plans they had.. seems to be asking the Question... do we really have a SOUL is there really a AFTER-LIFE because if not, then there is nothing we have that a Synthetic does not."
I see that but I disagree and I still don't think that a movie tied to the Alien universe should be about it. Leave that to other movies that probably could do so in a more interesting way.
A hubris of creation and the Xeno sure but I still think that it was wrong to let David be the creator of it since he is now a mad android with possible Hitler-esque dreams (remember his lines about mankind as a dying specie). Sure the Engineers are not nice either but I would rather have the Xenos tied to them and not David which makes more sense when you think about the crashed ship and its pilot in Alien. I would rather have the Engineers as those that made mankind and we misbehave so they send the Xeno one us, it would make more sense when explaining the dead pilot in the chair and also that would be more interesting than putting in all this AI stuff.
"But indeed a lot of these kinds of Plot are something that is covered in Blade Runner and so the Question should be why explore these in the Franchise, when it should be about the Xenomorph."
Not only about the Xeno but about well-written human characters that are finding themselves in situations that they are badly equipped for handling. To me this is the central theme in the Alien movies and those that are related to it. It is not about the Xeno per se, it is there to make the movie about the human experience work.
"The Reason RS went for the Xenomorph being a creation of David is to touch upon the Hubris of Creation, and so in Hindsight the Engineers made TWO massive Errors, 1) To Create us, 2) To Create something so Horrific in order to Destroy us."
That was a mistake because it was still too much about the AI part and to make David the supposed creator of the Xeno just made it worse because there were so many other ways to do that, ideas that I think would be more interesting. I hope that they still make it so he made a version of the original one, let the Engineers be the original creators but I am afraid that Scott will stick with the very unsatisfying version that David created the original. Hopefully they will change it now since people reacted to Alien Covenant the way they did, it would be nice if they would remove the most stupid developments that AC gave us.
"… the Synthetic David, who in a great Hubris actually can Control the Engineers Bio-Weapon and Evolve it and end up using it against the Engineers and then intending to use a Creation created from it to use against all Mankind and Humanoids. Ridley Scott felt this was the Big theme to explore."
It still gives too much importance to the AI, I don't like that. Scott might think that it is something interesting but I don't. At least one can say that it was not well executed on screen. To me the AI angle is getting cooked, and that happens at a fast tempo.
"When can we enjoy reading your Prometheus 2 script?"
Sadly i think never, as i abandoned it and it was more of a Broad Synopsis, with some Scenes i started to evolve into drafts, but i abandoned it mid 2014 because i could just not figure our ONE true way to explore the Engineers Connections, i had a broad idea which branched off into different ways, which conflicted some of what i was going to cover.. i just could not concentrate on a SINGLE aspect as far as what lies beyond the Engineers. I had many ideas but could not come up with one i liked.
I feel FOX had the same problem when working on Prometheus 2 due to the Bold Plot.
My draft mainly covered interaction and Philosophy behind David and Dr Shaw, touching upon what is Creation and what constitutes a Soul, and a Agenda by Weyland and why he created David. It indeed seemed to be a bit too much Blade Runner in parts than Alien.
Touched upon the Merger, which was a Deal struck between the heads of Yutani and Weylands Nephew for control of the company if Yutani Assassinated the Hier to Weyland Company (Miss Vickers, but was a Twist).
Lets just spoil a bit and say, it involved Female Android vs Android Action, in a Twist that Vickers on Earth was a Robot, revealed as she beat off Yutani Geisha Assassin Androids, the clues was there in how Vickers put up a fight against these Synthetics, and then revealed after she defeated them she had a cut and bleed white milk lol
Thus a Synthetic has no Rights, and the company would then go to Weylands Nephew who in return would lead to a Merger down the line, as Yutani gained all the AI and Synthetic work of Weyland Company and Military and Weylands Nephew would get the Space Projects and Terra-forming.
But Peter Weyland had a plan, which is revealed at the end, but starts in the one Prologue where a earlier David is discussing Life and Creation with Weyland while they play Chess. Where it is laid down that a Kings reign is not Protected by his Queen (or Hier) or his Knights, or Pawns but the greatest form of Defensive is via the Castle/Rook....
Weyland had a Project called Project Rook, which was a Tower on Mars where he was conducting Experiments and Storing AI and his objective was to Transcend a Humans Memories into AI to be uploaded into Synthetic Bodies.. so Weyland would become IMMORTAL... but the AI proved to be flawed and would go Haywire/Insane and so these route for Weyland would not be Immortality but Insanity
Hence his pursuit of Dr Shaws findings to find the real GOD's....
The objective if Operation Rook, would lead to Weylands AI getting loose and reveal it behind the company at latter stages.
Thanks Ati, I wonder what Giger would have thought of them? They seem to have the same kid of darkness to them at least.
The first picture reminds me of a Xeno under water. There was a scene like that in AR.
The story, well-written characters, and pacing.
The story is important, there got to be themes that are interesting. My reason for putting it like this is that the story usually (it seems to me) sort of sets the frames of what is about to happen.
Without well-written characters there is no one to support or connect with. Even with an interesting story about rebellion, free will, and similar things that are interesting in themselves it can't turn out well if the characters are people that we don't care for.
A a slow pacing is boring (a lot of movies that I have seen getting good reviews have had slow pacing, they have stated that in reviews it is usually a movie about the journey of a character or characters). I doesn't have to be action paced the whole time but if it is too slow it gets boring which means that I usually switch it off and do something else. There got to be a balance between slow and fast scenes.
The visuals can be necessary but it is usually not what I think is the most necessary thing. The characters and pacing can usually make the surroundings become less important.
If we are talking about Alien movies I need that tension or fear that something bad is about to happen but that is also connected to the characters, if I care for them or not. That didn't happen in Covenant much since we didn't get to know them very much.
To sum it up:
1. Story
2. Characters
3. Pacing
I am not sure if this list is in a hierarchical order but they are all important.
Actually this is a good topic, sometimes there can be improvements and constructive things out of complaints.
@Critters5
It appears that way, too many cooks in the Kitchen, a constant changing of the Story, in ways that could contradict what previously had been laid out.
@chli
To a degree yes, i think it depends how you interpret the Creation Tool that was the Sacrificial Goo, i feel the movie shows us or implies that the Engineer Event is what is literally the Panspermia event, but also that this event did not just take its course until we Naturally Evolved from this Event Eons ago..
But the Engineers would come back and tinker with DNA, indeed come back and wipe the slate clean with Events, so many stages of Evolution are not so Natural Selection, but Desired Selection by the Engineers taking certain Life-Forms and Evolving them, then placing the Results on Earth and watching over the Natural Evolution resulting from their tinkering with the Genetics... then they come back and chose one such Organism and further tinker with it until we have Mankind.
If we take Primate for example.. and look at the Sacrificial Goo as being a way to Mix the DNA of one Organism with another to make a Hybrid... so say a WOLF is introduced to the Sacrificial Goo and breaks down into a Pathogen that now has WOLF DNA, if this was to infect a Human we would end up with like a WEREWOLF like Hybrid.
so if we then take a Primate and introduce Engineer DNA, we could get a Hybrid that looks like say this next image we have Primate Stage 1 where Engineer DNA is introduced to Evolve to Stage 2 then Natural Evolution occurs until Stage 3 or 4 then Engineer DNA is introduced again to Evolve to Stage 4/5 and then Naturally Progresses to Modern Man.
This is what i read into RS comments about how the Engineers came to Earth over and over to Evolve us Genetically and Technologically, its what clues in Prometheus showed me and the kind of theory i was exploring with my Prometheus 2 daft.
As far as events like Great Mass Extinctions then yes i do think RS was going to explore these as Engineer related, he did just prior to AC mention how the Engineers would wipe the slate clean.. The Source i had back in Feb 2015 even suggested those above the Engineers have the Power/Technology to Shape Worlds and bring about Disasters like Floods, Ice Ages and more Disastrous events as ways to wipe the slate clean and that all such Events recorded in Biblical Stories actually happened, just not to Mankind as on Earth. Thus hinting that the Engineers are a previous Generation or their is a previous Generations of Mankind that link us and the Engineers.. The source was very ambiguous and not forthcoming with Direct Answers, but tease a Massive Curve-ball, which as i interpret it seems to point the Engineers as being just previous incarnations of David while those above the Engineers are perhaps previous incarnations of Mankind.
The sources information was pretty ambiguous and seemed puzzling way back in early 2015, but there are some very interesting Concepts for AC that could shed some light to what they was suggesting.
"But Alien is not that, once you separate these elements from the character you stay with its psychological traits, he is not only a murderer, he is a psychopath, he lacks empathy, emotions or susceptibility, his levels of intelligence and rage are immensely high, he is calculating, his mental processes are totally ruined, he is a deranged killer who does not attack directly but studies his victims in an insane way, he is a sexual depraved, only his high violent behavior satisfies his mental need to dominate his victims, rape, murder, dismember them and get drunk with pleasure while doing it. To this we add what already know:"
Indeed we could see this in the 1979 Xenomorph, but this evolved into something more basic throughout the Franchise, however those comments by yourself... do Sum up to a degree where and what RS is doing/taking us with DAVID 8
